***** THE ACOLYTE Show Discussion (see note inside) Thread *****

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ABATTBQ11
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In reply to TCTTS • 3:41p, 7/25/24
AG
TCTTS said:
Themes of race, gender, sexual orientation, etc simply weren't part of the fabric of the show, and weren't things any character had to overcome, or were oppressed because of, etc.


Sure, except the whole lesbian witch coven, "power and those who are allowed to use it," and, "The galaxy doesn't accept women like us," stuff that was the basis of the plot and multiple episodes...
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TCTTS
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In reply to ABATTBQ11 • 3:49p, 7/25/24
AG
Right, I acknowledged that ("the patriarchy/matriarchy stuff"), and again, IMO, it was about as tame as could be, confined to flashbacks, not at all in-your-face, etc.
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ABATTBQ11
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In reply to TCTTS • 4:02p, 7/25/24
AG
TCTTS said:
Right, I acknowledged that ("the patriarchy/matriarchy stuff"), and again, IMO, it was about as tame as could be, confined to flashbacks, not at all in-your-face, etc.


That's a gender based theme integral to the plot of the show though, and it's arguably sexual orientation considering it's a seemingly lesbian witch coven. Now, in the show, are they opposed specifically because of their orientation? No, but we as the audience are meant to understand the implication because it's so on the nose. They're without a doubt supposed to be a stand in for lgbt and feminists.

ETA Hell, the only thing more on the nose would be Aniseya breaking the fourth wall while she says, "The galaxy doesn't accept women like us, wink, wink," and then continuing on.
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TCTTS
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In reply to ABATTBQ11 • 4:24p, 7/25/24
AG
I would say it's integral to the flashbacks, but not the plot as a whole. And again, it's incredibly tame/not at all in-your-face.

That said... this kind of **** just doesn't bother me, personally, and I simply don't understand getting so worked up about it.

This is what artists do.

George Lucas made Star Wars as a commentary on the Vietnam War. So even the first movie, all the way back in 1977, was "woke" in that regard, his motivations were just as "woke" as Headland's were, etc.

Artists often make movies/shows/art as a means of exploring themes that are important them. Yes, many just want to entertain, but for many others they need to find ways in that are personal to them, on a thematic level.

And that's okay!

If Headlund wants to exercise her demons, and Lucasfilm is willing to pay her to do it... more power to them. Have it. No one's forcing any of us to watch, but if I choose to you can bet I'm going to complain if the filmmaking/storytelling is bad. What I'm not going to do is whine on the Internet about why someone wanted to make something, especially when Lucas himself had roughly the same motivations.

We've just entered this territory where anything even remotely "woke" automatically = bad, without any thought or nuance or empathy whatsoever, to the point where it becomes this witch hunt (no pun intended), everyone brings out their pitchforks, and it all just ultimately comes across as so dumb and so mindless now, and the whole conversation is beyond exhausting at this point.
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powerbelly
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In reply to TCTTS • 4:31p, 7/25/24
AG
The problem seems to be that they cared more about the underlying message and forgot to make a good show.

You can hit all the themes she wanted and still make it compelling. They completely failed.
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TCTTS
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In reply to powerbelly • 4:36p, 7/25/24
AG
Yes and no.

Because, again, her "message" didn't really come through at all. So either the show wasn't about her message, or she was terrible at communicating her message through the show.

Either way, the "woke" wasn't front and center, so I don't necessarily know that they "forgot to make a good show" in favor of the "woke," if that makes sense.

I just don't think she was very good at any of it.
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ABATTBQ11
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In reply to TCTTS • 4:44p, 7/25/24
AG
At least a quarter of the show was flashbacks, and that whole dichotomy was the impetus for everything the Jedi did and the basis for the rest of the plot. I don't see how you can make the argument that it's not integral to the rest of the show when it's pretty central to everything that's happening.

As I've said, and as powerbelly just commented, they were so focused on the underlying message that they ignored everything else like good writing and a story that makes sense. That's why people get worked up over it.
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ABATTBQ11
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In reply to TCTTS • 4:46p, 7/25/24
AG
TCTTS said:
Yes and no.

Because, again, her "message" didn't really come through to me at all. So either the show wasn't about her message, or she was terrible at communicating her message to me through the show.

Either way, the "woke" wasn't front and center to me, so I don't necessarily know that they "forgot to make a good show" in favor of the "woke," if that makes sense.

I just don't think she was very good at any of it.


FIFY
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Belton Ag
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In reply to TCTTS • 4:49p, 7/25/24
AG
My problem isn't with the lesbian space witches. That doesn't bother me either, just like it doesn't bother you to see it on film.

My problem is Headland taking her own struggles with her father and basically assigning that to fatherhood in general and decrying the paternal instinct as "benign sexism."

It's going a lot further than any parable about Vietnam that Lucas drew up.

It's a huge turn off. As evidenced by how unsuccessful this series is.

And if Headland is going to put this stuff out there in the public arena, so will my objection to it be put into the public arena.



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bobinator
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In reply to TCTTS • 4:53p, 7/25/24
AG
It's multiple layers of exhausting because then sometimes you have the artists hide from criticism behind the "people just hate it because of (whatever)."

Sometimes things just suck.
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TCTTS
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In reply to ABATTBQ11 • 4:54p, 7/25/24
AG
Yes, it was the impetus, but "oppressed lesbian witches" wasn't THE theme/focus of the show, one that resonated though every scene, defined everyone's motivations, etc. The plot/show itself was more of coverup/detective story, with themes of grief, guilt, and who gets to wield the Force. To that last point, Qimir - a dude - was just as pissed as the "lesbian witches" were. So it really wasn't even a patriarchy thing. It was simply about control, which is actually super interesting, and a theme worth absolutely exploring in this franchise. Again, Headlund just sucked at exploring it. Not because of "woke" but because she's a bad storyteller.
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TCTTS
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In reply to bobinator • 4:54p, 7/25/24
AG
bobinator said:
It's multiple layers of exhausting because then sometimes you have the artists hide from criticism behind the "people just hate it because of (whatever)."

Sometimes things just suck.

I agree with you 100% on that.
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ABATTBQ11
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In reply to ABATTBQ11 • 5:04p, 7/25/24
AG
And on top of that, just because it didn't come off as woke to you doesn't mean she wasn't trying. She admits that this was an exercise in woke film making, so there's no debate on whether or not she was focused on it. It was certainly front and center to her, even if it wasn't to you, and for many of us that's why she (and arguably Kathleen Kennedy and others) was oblivious to how bad of a show she was making. Her focus was on the wrong things.

Now, you can certainly disagree that said focus was detrimental to the show overall and argue that she's just not capable or equipped to do this sort of production, but you also spent quite a bit of time talking up her and her accolades before this came out and talking down to the rest of us who, rightfully, assumed that this show was going to suck based on her activist style and personality. You've also mentioned many times how she's a great filmmaker who earned this opportunity. So, were you wrong before and she's not the capable filmmaker you thought, or is she a good filmmaker who let her own woke inclinations and activist impulses get in the way of good filmmaking? We just think it's more likely the latter considering everything she's said in her interviews.
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Cliff.Booth
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5:26p, 7/25/24
They'll just say it's powers that be at the studio stifling her talent etc etc. On her own without their micromanagement she would have made a badass series yada yada
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TCTTS
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In reply to ABATTBQ11 • 5:37p, 7/25/24
AG
Dude, seriously? We've been over all of this like a dozen times now. And you're clearly not even reading half of what I'm saying, at that. I'll make these points, briefly, one last time, but you can go back through the thread to see my more detailed explanations, which, again, have been addressed ad nauseam...

- Headlund can be very good at making something like Russian Doll, but not be good at making blockbuster material. The things is, as I've said countless times now, you never know until you try.

- None of what Headlund has said as of late, and none of what you're saying in response, negates the fact that she was successful enough, objectively so, to have absolutely earned this opportunity. She made a wildly successful show that was damn near universally loved. And people who did far less before their "big shot" have gone on to do far better than she did in this franchise and others (if you need examples, again, I've provided tons of them).

- Despite how much you continue to crow about it, there's zero evidence that "woke" was more of a contributing factor to the show's flaws than simple bad execution/not being equipped to handle blockbuster storytelling.

- Never mind the infamously troubled Lucasfilm development process, which I've also mentioned countless times, that likely didn't do Headlund any favors either.

Point being, you were no more educated going into this thing, or right than I am now. It wasn't at all a stretch to assume this show had a chance to be good based on actual, legit evidence of Headlund having made a good show prior, along with the fact that she is an objectively knowledgeable Star Wars super-fan. While you simply thought this show would suck "based on her activist style and personality." We each had a 50/50 shot of being right. My assumption was based more on actual evidence, and yours was based more on "feels." And yet, we still don't know the answer as to why it was bad, but you're celebrating as if you do. When, in reality, it was likely a combination of factors... Headlund not being equipped to handle blockbuster material, Lucasfilm's ****ty development process... and yes, probably a bit of "woke" as well.

All I know is that you're making assumptions and posing them as facts, then holding me to your assumptions as if they're facts, and that's not a game I'm going to play.
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PatAg
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In reply to TCTTS • 6:38p, 7/25/24
AG
TCTTS said:
I would say it's integral to the flashbacks, but not the plot as a whole. And again, it's incredibly tame/not at all in-your-face.

That said... this kind of **** just doesn't bother me, personally, and I simply don't understand getting so worked up about it.

This is what artists do.

George Lucas made Star Wars as a commentary on the Vietnam War. So even the first movie, all the way back in 1977, was "woke" in that regard, his motivations were just as "woke" as Headland's were, etc.

Artists often make movies/shows/art as a means of exploring themes that are important them. Yes, many just want to entertain, but for many others they need to find ways in that are personal to them, on a thematic level.

And that's okay!

If Headlund wants to exercise her demons, and Lucasfilm is willing to pay her to do it... more power to them. Have it. No one's forcing any of us to watch, but if I choose to you can bet I'm going to complain if the filmmaking/storytelling is bad. What I'm not going to do is whine on the Internet about why someone wanted to make something, especially when Lucas himself had roughly the same motivations.

We've just entered this territory where anything even remotely "woke" automatically = bad, without any thought or nuance or empathy whatsoever, to the point where it becomes this witch hunt (no pun intended), everyone brings out their pitchforks, and it all just ultimately comes across as so dumb and so mindless now, and the whole conversation is beyond exhausting at this point.
Yea, our problem is the stuff she needed to work through from her past did not result in a good tv show, lol.
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Red Five
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6:41p, 7/25/24
AG
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Mathguy64
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6:42p, 7/25/24
AG
Let's be real. The common denominator over all the SW
Issues had been Kathleen Kennedy.

Put someone at the top who is different and you get different results.
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powerbelly
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 6:46p, 7/25/24
AG
Mathguy64 said:
Let's be real. The common denominator over all the SW
Issues had been Kathleen Kennedy.

Put someone at the top who is different and you get different results.


100%
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TCTTS
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 6:47p, 7/25/24
AG
On this, we can all agree.
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Dekker_Lentz
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In reply to concac • 7:56p, 7/25/24
AG
concac said:
Sea Speed said:
Holy hell the entire show was made because she has daddy issues.

Quote:
"Ultimately, what happens is again, this is a father-daughter relationship as women evolve in their lives and develop their own personalities separate from their fathers, at some point, they have to reject that protectionism," she asserted..................

"The daughter has to surpass him in some way," she explained. "She cannot stay a little girl or an adolescent or young adult. She has to, at some point, say, 'I reject what you have told me I need to do to make you proud, to follow in your footsteps.' She has to do that."

Headland concluded, "I do think when he says, 'It's okay,' I think you're right. He is imposing on her agency at that point. But I do think, in a weird way, she needed it. She needed his acceptance. Not his approval, but his acceptance of his fate, I think, is what gives her that energy to do the final fist clench."..................

Headland appears to be confirming that the entire show is about her own personal experiences rather than any kind of universal experience between fathers and daughters.
Disney paid $180mm for 8 therapy sessions for Headland.


Even worse, they paid 180 million to make the anti-Bluey show, which is one the most popular Disney+ shows and a huge hit with their target demographic. This interview really explains the disjointed mess of the story and why Sol ended up not making sense.
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Jdavis2017
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 9:34p, 7/25/24
Mathguy64 said:
Let's be real. The common denominator over all the SW
Issues had been Kathleen Kennedy.

Put someone at the top who is different and you get different results.
Really hoping that she is not renewed at the end of her contract this year.
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C@LAg
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9:36p, 7/25/24
need an outsider not from the Star Wars or Marvel pools.
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Cliff.Booth
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 9:47p, 7/25/24
Sure, but someone else at the top doesn't entrust $180 million to Lesyle lol. Please be serious and at least attempt to produce something worthy of being in the Lucas universe.
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PatAg
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 10:43p, 7/25/24
AG
Mathguy64 said:
Let's be real. The common denominator over all the SW
Issues had been Kathleen Kennedy.

Put someone at the top who is different and you get different results.
You can only change so many variables in the process before they have to hopefully come to this conclusion
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TCTTS
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In reply to Red Five • 10:46p, 7/25/24
AG
Red Five said:


Per usual, this is so damn good. And highlights just how bad the storytelling truly was. Heck, there was enough material, he could have kept going for twice as long, easy. Instead, it felt brutal and to-the-point, where you could almost tell it wasn't one of those movies/shows he still had fun with, despite featuring a bone-headed script. Maybe I'm falsely reading into it, but I got the impression he genuinely hated this one.
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Red Five
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In reply to TCTTS • 10:57p, 7/25/24
AG
"Actually no he shouldn't have killed her because she was going to let Osha join the Jedi."

"Probably shouldn't have turned into a big scary monster then."

"Yeah, well, if there's no miscommunication in this show then there is no show."

"Oh interesting storytelling technique."

Nailed it.
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redline248
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In reply to C@LAg • 11:19p, 7/25/24
AG
C@LAg said:
need an outsider not from the Star Wars or Marvel pools.
Isn't that what Headlund was? Or did you mean at the top of Lucasfilm?
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TCTTS
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11:54p, 7/25/24
AG
This one's even better, and basically expands on all the points made in the Pitch Meeting video. The Red Letter Media guys aren't as gleeful in their disdain, but as usual they make such great critiques in dry, hilarious fashion…

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redline248
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In reply to Red Five • 12:07a, 7/26/24
AG
Red Five said:
"Actually no he shouldn't have killed her because she was going to let Osha join the Jedi."

"Probably shouldn't have turned into a big scary monster then."

"Yeah, well, if there's no miscommunication in this show then there is no show."

"Oh interesting storytelling technique."

Nailed it.
"Who's to say why characters do what they do?"

"You."

lol
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redline248
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In reply to TCTTS • 12:12a, 7/26/24
AG
TCTTS said:
This one's even better, and basically expands on all the points made in the Pitch Meeting video. The Red Letter Media guys aren't as gleeful in their disdain, but as usual they make such great critiques in dry, hilarious fashion…

Each episode averaged 33.25 minutes, and some weren't even that long.
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Urban Ag
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12:56a, 7/26/24
AG
I didn't think this show was going to suck based on the lesbian chick directing it. I didn't know anything about her until after the trailers. I thought it would suck based on the actual trailers and the current track record of Disney SW.

And apparently it did. Seems no one at this point is defending it. LMAO.

Lesbian space witches? Again, LMAO.

Don't get me wrong. If the business plan is to appeal to a niche market Disney thinks this particular series can cater to effectively and at a profit, if even small. Great.

If anyone at the exec level thought this would cater to a broad viewership. Again, LMAO.

Maybe the space lesbians should have had a whole herd of baby yodas or something. At least give the toy and t-shirt market some love.

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redline248
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In reply to TCTTS • 1:39a, 7/26/24
AG
The one guy mentioned it a bunch, and it's something I posted after the 1st two episodes:
Quote:
Ok, this next one is not really a complaint (from a certain point of view?). The show has slightly set it up as the Jedi being the authoritarian "bad guy," and I don't know how I feel about that. I guess it can be open to interpretation, but if you're not using the Dark Side and trying to hurt others for your own gain, I'm not sure why the Jedi would care if you use the Force. I imagine it to be similar to different sects of Christianity or whatever. We might disagree about some stuff, but we both think the Force is a way to help people and maintain peaceful existence.

Turns out, this entire show was b/c the Jedi involved were completely terrible at their jobs. At being Jedi, at protecting anyone, at telling the truth...I know not everyone likes the Jedi, but I think that central aspect of the show is a huge turnoff for a lot of people.

The guy in the video said it would be cool to see a show about Jedi going around being actual guardians of peace and justice, and he's right. What I think he missed, though, was this show was about the Sith. Or at least it should have been. It would have been better to have no Jedi in the show at all, until maybe the end when some random non-named Jedi stumble onto whatever is going on, and all get killed.
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Dekker_Lentz
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5:41a, 7/26/24
AG
I think the issue with the "Jedi as the bad guys" in this story was mostly from poor story development.

TL;DR: The show needed to actually develop the Jedi as bad guys instead of just assuming it.

Reading between the lines, I think this stems from the writers thinking it was obvious to everyone that the Jedi were authoritarian thugs prior to watching the show and the audience not coming into the show with that same thought.

The show really needed to nail down a real moral dilemma to sell the premise to the audience. In my mind, the easiest story is continuing the Osha/Mai are one soul split into two bodies and all the characters arguing over whether the soul should be merged into one body.

Start with the witches ceremony was to try and merge the kids back together because they realized in creating the life they messed up and it caused a tear/disturbance in the Force.

So you have an actual dilemma for the Jedi with a clock. Do they let the ceremony happen or not? Is it murder for the body that will be gone?

The Jedi can get mix interpretations from the Force on what to or maybe even they can receive orders from Jedi command to let the ceremony happen after they report their finding, but they decide they can't watch it because they come to believe each girl is entitled to live as individuals. Lots of options.

Giving the Jedi unsolvable moral dilemma is the best way to show the flaws with any group being tasked being the "guardians of peace and justice."

Also I saw elsewhere on the internet that every force user could be seen as a nuclear bomb. Some dialogue explaining that and debate among the Jedi about examples of good/bad non-Jedi force users over the years would highlight why the Jedi are zealous in tracking down force users.
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Red Five
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In reply to Dekker_Lentz • 8:57a, 7/26/24
AG
I said after the final episode that I thought the more interesting show would have been one focused around the tension between the Jedi and the Senate. David Harewood was amazing in the 5 minutes of screen time he got, and his comment to Vernestra about Jedi thinking they can control the uncontrollable (their emotions, not the Force) is what makes them dangerous was more thought provoking and powerful than any other idea the show presented. That plays neatly into the idea of Jedi as walking nuclear bombs as well. Having Vernestra go increasingly astray as she tries to hide the fact that a former Jedi (and her former padawan) has become a serial killer would be an effective way to show the cracks in the Jedi moral foundations as well.
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