Do you believe that God creates people and it is possible that none of his creation might choose him? If not, why?

10andBOUNCE said:

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Do you believe that God creates people and it is possible that none of his creation might choose him? If not, why?

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Sure. But that is not Calvinism. There is no choice.

So in your scenario God creates man with it being possible not a single person chooses him for salvation.

In my scenario God creates man and definitely chooses to save some but not all.

Sound right?

10andBOUNCE said:

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So in your scenario God creates man with it being possible not a single person chooses him for salvation.

In my scenario God creates man and definitely chooses to save some but not all.

Sound right?

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Not at all, God created people with free will which you reject. And you believe God predestines people He created to ECT hell.

Your focus is completely on the negative. My focus is completely on the positive. This is why you don't "get it."

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I agree with the statement I shared of his which obviously answers your question.

That has nothing to do with his behavior in other ways I disagree with.

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And we shall agree to disagree. I am just glad to know you finally agree that with your theology God creates people pre ordained to ECT hell.

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Doesn't your theology (well, not YOU since you're a universalist) also mean God creates people destined for hell? Whether it's their own choice or God's that's sending them there, that's still where they are going, so why create them at all?

10andBOUNCE said:

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Your focus is completely on the negative. My focus is completely on the positive. This is why you don't "get it."

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So everybody who is not of the elect is destined to ECT hell? Got it

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Your focus is completely on the negative. My focus is completely on the positive. This is why you don't "get it."

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So everybody who is not of the elect is destined to ECT hell? Got it

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I don't see how anyone who is not a universalist could disagree with this statement. (If you're saved you're of the elect, so we can just replace "elect" in this statement with "saved" for ease).

Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Your focus is completely on the negative. My focus is completely on the positive. This is why you don't "get it."

---

So everybody who is not of the elect is destined to ECT hell? Got it

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I don't see how anyone who is not a universalist could disagree with this statement. (If you're saved you're of the elect, so we can just replace "elect" in this statement with "saved" for ease).

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Thanks

10andBOUNCE said:

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Your focus is completely on the negative. My focus is completely on the positive. This is why you don't "get it."

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How many people that God created do you believe He chooses for salvation? And how many do you believe He has created for ECT hell? And the damned could be your family, friends, neighbors etc., correct? I find it hard to focus on the positive in that scenario.

Think of a father with five kids that he helped create.They are in a burning house and he can save all of them but chooses to save only two. Do you think that is loving, just, and merciful?

And you have pastors like Lawson and Washer screaming hellfire and damnation at people who are preordained to ECT hell. Why? What is the purpose?

Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Your focus is completely on the negative. My focus is completely on the positive. This is why you don't "get it."

---

So everybody who is not of the elect is destined to ECT hell? Got it

---

I don't see how anyone who is not a universalist could disagree with this statement. (If you're saved you're of the elect, so we can just replace "elect" in this statement with "saved" for ease).

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Just curious, what do you believe a Christian universalist like St. Gregory of Nyssa or me believes?

Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I agree with the statement I shared of his which obviously answers your question.

That has nothing to do with his behavior in other ways I disagree with.

---

And we shall agree to disagree. I am just glad to know you finally agree that with your theology God creates people pre ordained to ECT hell.

---

Doesn't your theology (well, not YOU since you're a universalist) also mean God creates people destined for hell? Whether it's their own choice or God's that's sending them there, that's still where they are going, so why create them at all?

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That is an excellent question. I think He creates us because He loves us and wants us to enjoy the life He has given us. I do not think avoiding ECT hell is the main reason He created us. What do you think?

dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Your focus is completely on the negative. My focus is completely on the positive. This is why you don't "get it."

---

How many people that God created do you believe He chooses for salvation? And how many do you believe He has created for ECT hell? And the damned could be your family, friends, neighbors etc., correct? I find it hard to focus on the positive in that scenario.

Think of a father with five kids that he helped create.They are in a burning house and he can save all of them but chooses to save only two. Do you think that is loving, just, and merciful?

And you have pastors like Lawson and Washer screaming hellfire and damnation at people who are preordained to ECT hell. Why? What is the purpose?

---

You didn't reply to my comment regarding that no matter how they get to Hell, God still creates them for Hell. Whether He chooses or they choose, He still creates them knowing where they are going.

The burning building is not a good analogy. The children left behind to burn in your scenario did not deserve to be left behind to burn. Those going to hell to burn deserve it. A better analogy would be having a line of death row inmates and choosing some to be set free.

The problem with people is that we have a very small and shallow view of our sin and a very small view of God. We don't think our sin is THAT bad or offensive nor do we think God is THAT good and almighty. At least Calvinists acknowledge this even if they can't fully understand it.

dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Your focus is completely on the negative. My focus is completely on the positive. This is why you don't "get it."

---

So everybody who is not of the elect is destined to ECT hell? Got it

---

I don't see how anyone who is not a universalist could disagree with this statement. (If you're saved you're of the elect, so we can just replace "elect" in this statement with "saved" for ease).

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Just curious, what do you believe a Christian universalist like St. Gregory of Nyssa or me believes?

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Short answer: everyone will ultimately end up in Heaven.

My view: people who don't make the cut on earth basically get a second chance in hell. Somehow, in hell, they suddenly stop sinning and become righteous enough on their own for heaven. Somehow, in hell, heaven becomes desirable. Something happens in hell that didn't happen on earth that make them worthy of heaven.

dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I agree with the statement I shared of his which obviously answers your question.

That has nothing to do with his behavior in other ways I disagree with.

---

And we shall agree to disagree. I am just glad to know you finally agree that with your theology God creates people pre ordained to ECT hell.

---

Doesn't your theology (well, not YOU since you're a universalist) also mean God creates people destined for hell? Whether it's their own choice or God's that's sending them there, that's still where they are going, so why create them at all?

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That is an excellent question. I think He creates us because He loves us and wants us to enjoy the life He has given us. I do not think avoiding ECT hell is the main reason He created us. What do you think?

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I think He created us for His glory, however He has decided that is best to obtain and receive.

Your answer doesn't acknowledge my point.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Your focus is completely on the negative. My focus is completely on the positive. This is why you don't "get it."

---

How many people that God created do you believe He chooses for salvation? And how many do you believe He has created for ECT hell? And the damned could be your family, friends, neighbors etc., correct? I find it hard to focus on the positive in that scenario.

Think of a father with five kids that he helped create.They are in a burning house and he can save all of them but chooses to save only two. Do you think that is loving, just, and merciful?

And you have pastors like Lawson and Washer screaming hellfire and damnation at people who are preordained to ECT hell. Why? What is the purpose?

---

You didn't reply to my comment regarding that no matter how they get to Hell, God still creates them for Hell. Whether He chooses or they choose, He still creates them knowing where they are going.

The burning building is not a good analogy. The children left behind to burn in your scenario did not deserve to be left behind to burn. Those going to hell to burn deserve it. A better analogy would be having a line of death row inmates and choosing some to be set free.

The problem with people is that we have a very small and shallow view of our sin and a very small view of God. We don't think our sin is THAT bad or offensive nor do we think God is THAT good and almighty. At least Calvinists acknowledge this even if they can't fully understand it.

---

If you are a Calvinist and believe in total depravity then the kids who died in my example deserved it, correct? I have had reformed folks tell me we are all stamped with "destined for hell" on our body when we are born and only if God chooses us will we avoid ECT hell.

And I do not believe God creates anyone for ECT hell. I do not believe in ECT hell. I believe in corrective punishment of a limited time period. Every knee shall bow, All things will be made new. That is where we differ. You are so convinced of ECT hell that you believe someone has to go there.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I agree with the statement I shared of his which obviously answers your question.

That has nothing to do with his behavior in other ways I disagree with.

---

And we shall agree to disagree. I am just glad to know you finally agree that with your theology God creates people pre ordained to ECT hell.

---

Doesn't your theology (well, not YOU since you're a universalist) also mean God creates people destined for hell? Whether it's their own choice or God's that's sending them there, that's still where they are going, so why create them at all?

---

That is an excellent question. I think He creates us because He loves us and wants us to enjoy the life He has given us. I do not think avoiding ECT hell is the main reason He created us. What do you think?

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I think He created us for His glory, however He has decided that is best to obtain and receive.

Your answer doesn't acknowledge my point.

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You believe in ECT hell and therefore in your mind someone has to go there, I do not believe in ECT hell.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I agree with the statement I shared of his which obviously answers your question.

That has nothing to do with his behavior in other ways I disagree with.

---

And we shall agree to disagree. I am just glad to know you finally agree that with your theology God creates people pre ordained to ECT hell.

---

Doesn't your theology (well, not YOU since you're a universalist) also mean God creates people destined for hell? Whether it's their own choice or God's that's sending them there, that's still where they are going, so why create them at all?

---

That is an excellent question. I think He creates us because He loves us and wants us to enjoy the life He has given us. I do not think avoiding ECT hell is the main reason He created us. What do you think?

---

I think He created us for His glory, however He has decided that is best to obtain and receive.

Your answer doesn't acknowledge my point.

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So does He create everyone for His glory or just the elect? Does punishing people preordained to hell for eternity give Him glory?

And how do you think we best give God glory? Do you think threatening people with hell gives God glory?

dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Your focus is completely on the negative. My focus is completely on the positive. This is why you don't "get it."

---

How many people that God created do you believe He chooses for salvation? And how many do you believe He has created for ECT hell? And the damned could be your family, friends, neighbors etc., correct? I find it hard to focus on the positive in that scenario.

Think of a father with five kids that he helped create.They are in a burning house and he can save all of them but chooses to save only two. Do you think that is loving, just, and merciful?

And you have pastors like Lawson and Washer screaming hellfire and damnation at people who are preordained to ECT hell. Why? What is the purpose?

---

You didn't reply to my comment regarding that no matter how they get to Hell, God still creates them for Hell. Whether He chooses or they choose, He still creates them knowing where they are going.

The burning building is not a good analogy. The children left behind to burn in your scenario did not deserve to be left behind to burn. Those going to hell to burn deserve it. A better analogy would be having a line of death row inmates and choosing some to be set free.

The problem with people is that we have a very small and shallow view of our sin and a very small view of God. We don't think our sin is THAT bad or offensive nor do we think God is THAT good and almighty. At least Calvinists acknowledge this even if they can't fully understand it.

---

If you are a Calvinist and believe in total depravity then the kids who died in my example deserved it, correct? I have had reformed folks tell me we are all stamped with "destined for hell" on our body when we are born and only if God chooses us will we avoid ECT hell.

And I do not believe God creates anyone for ECT hell. I do not believe in ECT hell. I believe in corrective punishment of a limited time period. Every knee shall bow, All things will be made new. That is where we differ. You are so convinced of ECT hell that you believe someone has to go there.

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Sure, but the way you gave the example was massaging emotions, painting them as these innocent children that a loving father left behind. My example was more honest to reality.

I know, you think this life is just our first chance and we get a second chance when we die if we didn't choose to make the most of our first chance. And our second chance is not going to be fun, but it won't be that bad and will only be temporary.

Not sure how anyone can read the bible honestly and intellectually and come to that conclusion but if that's what you've decided, so be it.

Your beliefs aside, it would be nice if you'd acknowledge that everyone who isn't a universalist believes God creates some individuals knowing they are going to hell, rather than just picking on Calvinists.

How some don't end up there can be a separate discussion.

dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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I agree with the statement I shared of his which obviously answers your question.

That has nothing to do with his behavior in other ways I disagree with.

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And we shall agree to disagree. I am just glad to know you finally agree that with your theology God creates people pre ordained to ECT hell.

---

Doesn't your theology (well, not YOU since you're a universalist) also mean God creates people destined for hell? Whether it's their own choice or God's that's sending them there, that's still where they are going, so why create them at all?

---

That is an excellent question. I think He creates us because He loves us and wants us to enjoy the life He has given us. I do not think avoiding ECT hell is the main reason He created us. What do you think?

---

I think He created us for His glory, however He has decided that is best to obtain and receive.

Your answer doesn't acknowledge my point.

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So does He create everyone for His glory or just the elect? Does punishing people preordained to hell for eternity give Him glory?

And how do you think we best give God glory? Do you think threatening people with hell gives God glory?

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Yes. Everyone and everything created for His glory. It's not about us at all.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Your focus is completely on the negative. My focus is completely on the positive. This is why you don't "get it."

---

How many people that God created do you believe He chooses for salvation? And how many do you believe He has created for ECT hell? And the damned could be your family, friends, neighbors etc., correct? I find it hard to focus on the positive in that scenario.

Think of a father with five kids that he helped create.They are in a burning house and he can save all of them but chooses to save only two. Do you think that is loving, just, and merciful?

And you have pastors like Lawson and Washer screaming hellfire and damnation at people who are preordained to ECT hell. Why? What is the purpose?

---

You didn't reply to my comment regarding that no matter how they get to Hell, God still creates them for Hell. Whether He chooses or they choose, He still creates them knowing where they are going.

The burning building is not a good analogy. The children left behind to burn in your scenario did not deserve to be left behind to burn. Those going to hell to burn deserve it. A better analogy would be having a line of death row inmates and choosing some to be set free.

The problem with people is that we have a very small and shallow view of our sin and a very small view of God. We don't think our sin is THAT bad or offensive nor do we think God is THAT good and almighty. At least Calvinists acknowledge this even if they can't fully understand it.

---

If you are a Calvinist and believe in total depravity then the kids who died in my example deserved it, correct? I have had reformed folks tell me we are all stamped with "destined for hell" on our body when we are born and only if God chooses us will we avoid ECT hell.

And I do not believe God creates anyone for ECT hell. I do not believe in ECT hell. I believe in corrective punishment of a limited time period. Every knee shall bow, All things will be made new. That is where we differ. You are so convinced of ECT hell that you believe someone has to go there.

---

Sure, but the way you gave the example was massaging emotions, painting them as these innocent children that a loving father left behind. My example was more honest to reality.

I know, you think this life is just our first chance and we get a second chance when we die if we didn't choose to make the most of our first chance. And our second chance is not going to be fun, but it won't be that bad and will only be temporary.

Not sure how anyone can read the bible honestly and intellectually and come to that conclusion but if that's what you've decided, so be it.

Your beliefs aside, it would be nice if you'd acknowledge that everyone who isn't a universalist believes God creates some individuals knowing they are going to hell, rather than just picking on Calvinists.

How some don't end up there can be a separate discussion.

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The reason I "pick on" Calvinism is that their theology makes God in to a monster who preordains the vast majority of people He created to ECT hell. Almost all other Christians believe in free will and man chooses his destiny. Which does not make God a monster.
I do not understand how one can read the entirety of Scripture and believe in Calvinism.

dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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10andBOUNCE said:

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Your focus is completely on the negative. My focus is completely on the positive. This is why you don't "get it."

---

How many people that God created do you believe He chooses for salvation? And how many do you believe He has created for ECT hell? And the damned could be your family, friends, neighbors etc., correct? I find it hard to focus on the positive in that scenario.

Think of a father with five kids that he helped create.They are in a burning house and he can save all of them but chooses to save only two. Do you think that is loving, just, and merciful?

And you have pastors like Lawson and Washer screaming hellfire and damnation at people who are preordained to ECT hell. Why? What is the purpose?

---

You didn't reply to my comment regarding that no matter how they get to Hell, God still creates them for Hell. Whether He chooses or they choose, He still creates them knowing where they are going.

The burning building is not a good analogy. The children left behind to burn in your scenario did not deserve to be left behind to burn. Those going to hell to burn deserve it. A better analogy would be having a line of death row inmates and choosing some to be set free.

The problem with people is that we have a very small and shallow view of our sin and a very small view of God. We don't think our sin is THAT bad or offensive nor do we think God is THAT good and almighty. At least Calvinists acknowledge this even if they can't fully understand it.

---

If you are a Calvinist and believe in total depravity then the kids who died in my example deserved it, correct? I have had reformed folks tell me we are all stamped with "destined for hell" on our body when we are born and only if God chooses us will we avoid ECT hell.

And I do not believe God creates anyone for ECT hell. I do not believe in ECT hell. I believe in corrective punishment of a limited time period. Every knee shall bow, All things will be made new. That is where we differ. You are so convinced of ECT hell that you believe someone has to go there.

---

Sure, but the way you gave the example was massaging emotions, painting them as these innocent children that a loving father left behind. My example was more honest to reality.

I know, you think this life is just our first chance and we get a second chance when we die if we didn't choose to make the most of our first chance. And our second chance is not going to be fun, but it won't be that bad and will only be temporary.

Not sure how anyone can read the bible honestly and intellectually and come to that conclusion but if that's what you've decided, so be it.

Your beliefs aside, it would be nice if you'd acknowledge that everyone who isn't a universalist believes God creates some individuals knowing they are going to hell, rather than just picking on Calvinists.

How some don't end up there can be a separate discussion.

---

The reason I "pick on" Calvinism is that their theology makes God in to a monster who preordains the vast majority of people He created to ECT hell. Almost all other Christians believe in free will and man chooses his destiny. Which does not make God a monster.
I do not understand how one can read the entirety of Scripture and believe in Calvinism.

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I see you're not going to acknowledge my point.

You make it seem as though people who are not Calvinist believe God creates man destined for heaven and some of them end up choosing hell instead.

But, that's not the case.

EVERYONE God creates are destined for hell if they are not saved. Calvinists AND anyone who is not a universalist believes this. So stop trying to paint Calvinists as these terrible people who believe that God, with a sinister laugh, creates people so He can receive pleasure in torturing them. That's disgusting and utterly untrue.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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EVERYONE God creates will be in hell if they are not saved. Calvinists AND anyone who is not a universalist believes this. So stop trying to paint Calvinists as these terrible people who believe that God, with a sinister laugh, creates people so He can receive pleasure in torturing them. That's disgusting and utterly untrue.

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Does He creates anyone everyone people He has preordained to ECT hell? Do the non elect have any chance?

And as far as God torturing people with a sinister laugh, have you read Jonathan Edward's Sinners in the hands of an angry God? Or Paul Washer, noted Calvinist evangelist, who has stated that we and all of creation will applaud when we watch sinners go to ECT hell. What am I supposed to think about Calvinism?

And are you very familiar with John Calvin and his behavior and character? Not exactly exhibiting fruits of the Spirit.

But to be fair, there have been popes who were horrible, Armenians who were horrible, lots of Christians who have not been good people.

But I can understand their theology. Where God gives every person He created a chance. Calvinism does not. When you link total depravity with limited atonement it takes away any chance for people created by God.

I love God and Jesus. I do not like them portrayed in this manner which I believe is not consistent with the entirety of Scripture. Non TULIP Christians do not paint God in this way.

So that is why Calvinism and TULIP bother me.

And posted earlier but here is another example
https://paulspassingthoughts.com/2015/03/07/steve-lawson-sloppy-hermeneutics-will-christ-personally-torment-unbelievers-in-hell-for-eternity-3/

10andBOUNCE said:

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"God must have the glory; for if man had the power to save himself, God would not be the only one to be praised."
Spurgeon, A Defense of Calvinism

At its core, Calvinism is aimed at protecting, praising, and promoting the glory of God.

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So you believe God is glorified when He preordains people He created to ECT hell? And is glorified by punishing people He created for eternity as Calvinist pastors have stated.

i do not see glory in that so I guess I am not of the elect.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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You make it seem as though people who are not Calvinist believe God creates man destined for heaven and some of them end up choosing hell instead.

But, that's not the case.

EVERYONE God creates are destined for hell if they are not saved. Calvinists AND anyone who is not a universalist believes this. So stop trying to paint Calvinists as these terrible people who believe that God, with a sinister laugh, creates people so He can receive pleasure in torturing them. That's disgusting and utterly untrue.

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But Calvinism is the only theology to my knowledge where people created by God have no choice. If there are others, please enlighten me.

dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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EVERYONE God creates will be in hell if they are not saved. Calvinists AND anyone who is not a universalist believes this. So stop trying to paint Calvinists as these terrible people who believe that God, with a sinister laugh, creates people so He can receive pleasure in torturing them. That's disgusting and utterly untrue.

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Does He creates anyone everyone people He has preordained to ECT hell? Do the non elect have any chance?

And as far as God torturing people with a sinister laugh, have you read Jonathan Edward's Sinners in the hands of an angry God? Or Paul Washer, noted Calvinist evangelist, has stated that we and all of creation will applaud when we watch sinners go to ECT hell. What am I supposed to think about Calvinism?

And are you very familiar with John Calvin and his behavior and character? Not exactly exhibiting fruits of the Spirit.

But to be fair, there have been popes who were horrible, Armenians who were horrible, lots of Christians who have not been good people.

But I can understand their theology. Where God gives every person He created a chance. Calvinism does not. When you link total depravity with limited atonement it takes away any chance for people created by God.

I love God and Jesus. I do not like them portrayed in this manner which I believe is not consistent with the entirety of Scripture. Non TULIP Christians do not paint God in this way.

So that is why Calvinism and TULIP bother me.

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NO ONE has a chance unless they are saved.

The saved are the elect.

How one comes to be saved/of the elect is a separate discussion.

Do you "applaud" when serial rapists, child molesters, murders, terrorists get their due punishment?

It's the same with those who are judged to hell. It's their due punishment, it fits the crime. The problem is, you don't think we are bad enough for it. You think the punishment doesn't fit the crime. You have a shallow view of our sin and its offense to God. You have a shallow view of God's holiness.

For the record, I know I do as well, but the difference is I know I can't comprehend these things and trust God when He says our sin is that offensive and He is that holy.

Calvin's behavior has nothing to do with anything. Peter denied God three times in a span of hours.

You are talking about two different things here. I want you to acknowledge that anyone who is not a universalist believes that God creates people destined for hell.

If you deny this, I will conclude that you believe that anyone who is not a Calvinist believes that God does not know where people will end up when they die.

How they get there is a separate discussion.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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EVERYONE God creates will be in hell if they are not saved. Calvinists AND anyone who is not a universalist believes this. So stop trying to paint Calvinists as these terrible people who believe that God, with a sinister laugh, creates people so He can receive pleasure in torturing them. That's disgusting and utterly untrue.

---

Does He creates anyone everyone people He has preordained to ECT hell? Do the non elect have any chance?

And as far as God torturing people with a sinister laugh, have you read Jonathan Edward's Sinners in the hands of an angry God? Or Paul Washer, noted Calvinist evangelist, has stated that we and all of creation will applaud when we watch sinners go to ECT hell. What am I supposed to think about Calvinism?

And are you very familiar with John Calvin and his behavior and character? Not exactly exhibiting fruits of the Spirit.

But to be fair, there have been popes who were horrible, Armenians who were horrible, lots of Christians who have not been good people.

But I can understand their theology. Where God gives every person He created a chance. Calvinism does not. When you link total depravity with limited atonement it takes away any chance for people created by God.

I love God and Jesus. I do not like them portrayed in this manner which I believe is not consistent with the entirety of Scripture. Non TULIP Christians do not paint God in this way.

So that is why Calvinism and TULIP bother me.

---

NO ONE has a chance unless they are saved.

The saved are the elect.

How one comes to be saved/of the elect is a separate discussion.

Do you "applaud" when serial rapists, child molesters, murders, terrorists get their due punishment?

It's the same with those who are judged to hell. It's their due punishment, it fits the crime. The problem is, you don't think we are bad enough for it. You think the punishment doesn't fit the crime. You have a shallow view of our sin and its offense to God. You have a shallow view of God's holiness.

For the record, I know I do as well, but the difference is I know I can't comprehend these things and trust God when He says our sin is that offensive and He is that holy.

Calvin's behavior has nothing to do with anything. Peter denied God three times in a span of hours.

You are talking about two different things here. I want you to acknowledge that anyone who is not a universalist believes that God creates people destined for hell.

If you deny this, I will conclude that you believe that anyone who is not a Calvinist believes that God does not know where people will end up when they die.

How they get there is a separate discussion.

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Is there any other theology other than Calvinism that states that there is no free will and man has no choice for salvation or not? That people are created by God with zero chance to avoid ECT hell?

And You know nothing about me or how I live my life. To say I have a shallow view of the seriousness of sin and lack appreciation of God's holiness is a predictable jab. But not true. It is my concern for God's goodness, holiness, love, mercy, and being just that makes me appalled by TULIP.

And if I did nelieve in ECT hell, I would stop working, leave my family, and work 24/7 to keep people from going there. I do not see infernalists doing that.

dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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EVERYONE God creates will be in hell if they are not saved. Calvinists AND anyone who is not a universalist believes this. So stop trying to paint Calvinists as these terrible people who believe that God, with a sinister laugh, creates people so He can receive pleasure in torturing them. That's disgusting and utterly untrue.

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Does He creates anyone everyone people He has preordained to ECT hell? Do the non elect have any chance?

And as far as God torturing people with a sinister laugh, have you read Jonathan Edward's Sinners in the hands of an angry God? Or Paul Washer, noted Calvinist evangelist, has stated that we and all of creation will applaud when we watch sinners go to ECT hell. What am I supposed to think about Calvinism?

And are you very familiar with John Calvin and his behavior and character? Not exactly exhibiting fruits of the Spirit.

But to be fair, there have been popes who were horrible, Armenians who were horrible, lots of Christians who have not been good people.

But I can understand their theology. Where God gives every person He created a chance. Calvinism does not. When you link total depravity with limited atonement it takes away any chance for people created by God.

I love God and Jesus. I do not like them portrayed in this manner which I believe is not consistent with the entirety of Scripture. Non TULIP Christians do not paint God in this way.

So that is why Calvinism and TULIP bother me.

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NO ONE has a chance unless they are saved.

The saved are the elect.

How one comes to be saved/of the elect is a separate discussion.

Do you "applaud" when serial rapists, child molesters, murders, terrorists get their due punishment?

It's the same with those who are judged to hell. It's their due punishment, it fits the crime. The problem is, you don't think we are bad enough for it. You think the punishment doesn't fit the crime. You have a shallow view of our sin and its offense to God. You have a shallow view of God's holiness.

For the record, I know I do as well, but the difference is I know I can't comprehend these things and trust God when He says our sin is that offensive and He is that holy.

Calvin's behavior has nothing to do with anything. Peter denied God three times in a span of hours.

You are talking about two different things here. I want you to acknowledge that anyone who is not a universalist believes that God creates people destined for hell.

If you deny this, I will conclude that you believe that anyone who is not a Calvinist believes that God does not know where people will end up when they die.

How they get there is a separate discussion.

---

Is there any other theology other than Calvinism that states that there is no free will and man has no choice for salvation or not? That people are created by God with zero chance to avoid ECT hell?

And You know nothing about me or how I live my life. To say I have a shallow view of the seriousness of sin and lack appreciation of God's holiness is a predictable jab. But not true. It is my concern for God's goodness, holiness, love, mercy, and being just that makes me appalled by TULIP.

---

Yes, you have a one sided view of God. You don't acknowledge His justice and wrath. Righteous justice and wrath ARE GOOD. It's good to justly punish.

You won't acknowledge what I want you to acknowledge. You keep dragging in the separate discussion. So, I don't think this will go any further.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

---

dermdoc said:

---

Howdy, it is me! said:

---

EVERYONE God creates will be in hell if they are not saved. Calvinists AND anyone who is not a universalist believes this. So stop trying to paint Calvinists as these terrible people who believe that God, with a sinister laugh, creates people so He can receive pleasure in torturing them. That's disgusting and utterly untrue.

---

Does He creates anyone everyone people He has preordained to ECT hell? Do the non elect have any chance?

And as far as God torturing people with a sinister laugh, have you read Jonathan Edward's Sinners in the hands of an angry God? Or Paul Washer, noted Calvinist evangelist, has stated that we and all of creation will applaud when we watch sinners go to ECT hell. What am I supposed to think about Calvinism?

And are you very familiar with John Calvin and his behavior and character? Not exactly exhibiting fruits of the Spirit.

But to be fair, there have been popes who were horrible, Armenians who were horrible, lots of Christians who have not been good people.

But I can understand their theology. Where God gives every person He created a chance. Calvinism does not. When you link total depravity with limited atonement it takes away any chance for people created by God.

I love God and Jesus. I do not like them portrayed in this manner which I believe is not consistent with the entirety of Scripture. Non TULIP Christians do not paint God in this way.

So that is why Calvinism and TULIP bother me.

---

NO ONE has a chance unless they are saved.

The saved are the elect.

How one comes to be saved/of the elect is a separate discussion.

Do you "applaud" when serial rapists, child molesters, murders, terrorists get their due punishment?

It's the same with those who are judged to hell. It's their due punishment, it fits the crime. The problem is, you don't think we are bad enough for it. You think the punishment doesn't fit the crime. You have a shallow view of our sin and its offense to God. You have a shallow view of God's holiness.

For the record, I know I do as well, but the difference is I know I can't comprehend these things and trust God when He says our sin is that offensive and He is that holy.

Calvin's behavior has nothing to do with anything. Peter denied God three times in a span of hours.

You are talking about two different things here. I want you to acknowledge that anyone who is not a universalist believes that God creates people destined for hell.

If you deny this, I will conclude that you believe that anyone who is not a Calvinist believes that God does not know where people will end up when they die.

How they get there is a separate discussion.

---

Is there any other theology other than Calvinism that states that there is no free will and man has no choice for salvation or not? That people are created by God with zero chance to avoid ECT hell?

And You know nothing about me or how I live my life. To say I have a shallow view of the seriousness of sin and lack appreciation of God's holiness is a predictable jab. But not true. It is my concern for God's goodness, holiness, love, mercy, and being just that makes me appalled by TULIP.

---

Yes, you have a one sided view of God. You don't acknowledge His justice and wrath. Righteous justice and wrath ARE GOOD. It's good to justly punish.

You won't acknowledge what I want you to acknowledge. You keep dragging in the separate discussion. So, I don't think this will go any further.

---

Is Calvinism the only theology that states that humans created by God have no choice to avoid ECT hell?

And I acknowledge God's justice and wrath. And I believe it is good. I do not creating people preordained to hell with no choice is just or good. You obviously do.

I'm going to give it one last try, phrasing it so that even you, a universalist, would agree.

God creates all people knowing some will be punished.

True or false?

He could choose to not create those that will be punished, but He doesn't, He creates them anyway.

True or false?

Howdy, it is me! said:

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I'm going to give it one last try, phrasing it so that even you, a universalist, would agree.

God creates all people knowing some will be punished.

True or false?

He could choose to not create those that will be punished, but He doesn't, He creates them anyway.

True or false?

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He creates people with free will and they choose to accept or reject Him. Agree or not?

dermdoc said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

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I'm going to give it one last try, phrasing it so that even you, a universalist, would agree.

God creates all people knowing some will be punished.

True or false?

He could choose to not create those that will be punished, but He doesn't, He creates them anyway.

True or false?

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He creates people with free will and they choose to accept or reject Him. Agree or not?

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Ok, won't answer. Got it.