Dark_Knight said:Well that's the problem. The naysayers post mostly bs and the pro camp seems to skimp on details. When I see Republicans and Democrats coming together to go against these bills, it makes me pause.Phatbob said:
At least half of what you read will be inaccurate or propaganda, so you aren't really behind
FCBlitz said:
Small town Republicans are against vouchers because it reduces the amounts of contracts that be issued in these lightly populated counties.
Vouchers will never pass because of this.
Im Gipper said:FCBlitz said:
Small town Republicans are against vouchers because it reduces the amounts of contracts that be issued in these lightly populated counties.
Vouchers will never pass because of this.
WRONG
Small town RINO reps are! The polls show the constituents want vouchers!
Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:
I'm a 20+ year public educator who is pro-school vouchers as long as we start allowing public schools to operate similarly to charter and private schools.
If we don't want to, we don't offer special education services. If we want to, we can kick out any kid. If we don't want to, we don't use standardized tests. If we're going to allow some parents to decide if they are happy with their educational choices without state interference, all parents should have that choice. Public schools choose what they teach, not the state.
jopatura said:
How school funding currently works:
A long time ago, it was written into the Texas Constitution that ISD property taxes could only fund education.
John pays property taxes, the ISD portion is average $6k-$7k. The ISD collects property taxes from everyone in their district boundaries. Then the state has a calculation that is Property Tax Revenue/Weighted Average Daily Attendance. If this revenue is too high, the ISD sends back a portion to the state. This portion goes into the Foundation School Program fund. If this revenue is too low, the state sends back a portion of the Foundation School Program fund to the ISD.
In addition to property taxes, state lottery, state general fund, federal dollars, and local bonds all make up education funding. Most districts spends about $9,000/per student. $6,160 of that is the basic allotment for 100% perfect attendance and comes from the property taxes. The districts that quote $14k-$16k per student are usually including bonds and federal free lunch dollars. Both bonds and federal free lunch dollars have very specific things they can be spent on.
Currently, the state has cut its contributions from state lottery and state general fund because the property taxes recaptured from property rich ISDs is very high and daily attendance has been lower during and after COVID. So the state has grown its surplus over the past 5 years on the backs of education.
Right now, what's draining money out of the Foundation School Program fund is charter schools. They are only given the basic allotment of $6,160 and some federal dollars depending on what they offer. They don't get bonds and usually aren't eligible for other state funds. If there was no recapture, Texas probably couldn't pay for charter schools. (Now with the voucher program, I do think most charter schools would be reimagined into private schools).
Basic allotment hasn't grown since 2019, even with the addition of several bills in the last couple of sessions that come with required spending and safety upgrades. Some could be bonds, some couldn't. Teachers also want a raise to keep up with inflation and the rise in housing/groceries/utilities.
Now to vouchers - the last couple of bills have floated $10,000 per kid to go to private school or homeschool. Let's say John has 3 kids. He has paid in $6,000 to get back $30,000. $10,000 is more than most public schools get per student, especially when all $10,000 is allowed to be spent freely by the private school or homeschool. The vouchers would be paid first out of anything left in the Foundation School Program fund, then out of the surplus. When both are depleted, there is no additional funding generator. This is why there are limits to the voucher program.
If the voucher program is limited, who is receiving it? How do families know if they are going to receive it? Do you apply and get accepted by a private school, then wait to apply for the voucher, then hopefully be awarded the voucher to pay for the private school. If you are poor, are you going to jump through all those hoops for "maybe"? What if you don't get awarded the voucher and you can't afford it? Thus the ones that will apply for the vouchers and be awarded the vouchers are mostly middle class to upper class families already interested in private school.
Now let's swing back to recapture being a formula of property tax value/weighted average daily attendance. As students who attend the district drop because of vouchers, the likelihood the ISD will become a recapture paying district increases. For some rural counties, we may be only talking 25-50 students that could swing them from property poor to property rich - these are also kids who probably wouldn't go to private school but would be homeschooled.
Currently, there are no restrictions on private schools. They don't have to follow TEKS. They don't have to pass the STAAR. They don't have to hire certified teachers. They don't have to offer PE, offer Recess, offer art & music, have a cafeteria, or teach violent SPED kids. Learning disabilities need not apply. Who care about safety, there's no police officer, single entry, raptor program that the private school has to fund - these are all requirements of a public school by law.
Eventually with the vouchers, the thought is that public schools won't become more like private schools but private schools will become more like public schools as pressure for equality is put on the voucher program.
Now, I don't think vouchers are inherently evil anymore, but they need to be part of a completely overhauled system. The only proposals I've seen around vouchers deal with drawing money out of the property tax system to line pockets that it was never supposed to line. Until the state pays back all the lottery money and general fund money that it's drained from the system, I have no faith they actually want to do right by education in Texas.
Logos Stick said:Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:
I'm a 20+ year public educator who is pro-school vouchers as long as we start allowing public schools to operate similarly to charter and private schools.
If we don't want to, we don't offer special education services. If we want to, we can kick out any kid. If we don't want to, we don't use standardized tests. If we're going to allow some parents to decide if they are happy with their educational choices without state interference, all parents should have that choice. Public schools choose what they teach, not the state.
If we did that to public schools, we wouldn't need vouchers. It's never going to happen.
Quote:
Currently, there are no restrictions on private schools. They don't have to follow TEKS. They don't have to pass the STAAR. They don't have to hire certified teachers. They don't have to offer PE, offer Recess, offer art & music, have a cafeteria, or teach violent SPED kids. Learning disabilities need not apply. Who care about safety, there's no police officer, single entry, raptor program that the private school has to fund - these are all requirements of a public school by law.
Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:Logos Stick said:Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:
I'm a 20+ year public educator who is pro-school vouchers as long as we start allowing public schools to operate similarly to charter and private schools.
If we don't want to, we don't offer special education services. If we want to, we can kick out any kid. If we don't want to, we don't use standardized tests. If we're going to allow some parents to decide if they are happy with their educational choices without state interference, all parents should have that choice. Public schools choose what they teach, not the state.
If we did that to public schools, we wouldn't need vouchers. It's never going to happen.
Then vouchers won't fix educational outcomes.
Logos Stick said:Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:Logos Stick said:Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:
I'm a 20+ year public educator who is pro-school vouchers as long as we start allowing public schools to operate similarly to charter and private schools.
If we don't want to, we don't offer special education services. If we want to, we can kick out any kid. If we don't want to, we don't use standardized tests. If we're going to allow some parents to decide if they are happy with their educational choices without state interference, all parents should have that choice. Public schools choose what they teach, not the state.
If we did that to public schools, we wouldn't need vouchers. It's never going to happen.
Then vouchers won't fix educational outcomes.
Yes they will for those who use them because private schools can do all those things.
Public schools cannot be fixed. Too many leftists are involved.
The biggest problem with public schools isn't leftists. By a wide margin, it's parents that don't care to be involved. Republican education reform absolutely would not fix schools, either. Blaming leftists here is a red herring. Parents and students have to choose for themselves to be better and no political party can do that for them.Logos Stick said:Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:Logos Stick said:Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:
I'm a 20+ year public educator who is pro-school vouchers as long as we start allowing public schools to operate similarly to charter and private schools.
If we don't want to, we don't offer special education services. If we want to, we can kick out any kid. If we don't want to, we don't use standardized tests. If we're going to allow some parents to decide if they are happy with their educational choices without state interference, all parents should have that choice. Public schools choose what they teach, not the state.
If we did that to public schools, we wouldn't need vouchers. It's never going to happen.
Then vouchers won't fix educational outcomes.
Yes they will for those who use them because private schools can do all those things.
Public schools cannot be fixed. Too many leftists are involved.
Conservative teachers can't fix schools. Conservative administrators can't fix schools. The largest determinants for scholastic success aren't whether you live in a D or an R area. It's per capita income.Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:Logos Stick said:Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:Logos Stick said:Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:
I'm a 20+ year public educator who is pro-school vouchers as long as we start allowing public schools to operate similarly to charter and private schools.
If we don't want to, we don't offer special education services. If we want to, we can kick out any kid. If we don't want to, we don't use standardized tests. If we're going to allow some parents to decide if they are happy with their educational choices without state interference, all parents should have that choice. Public schools choose what they teach, not the state.
If we did that to public schools, we wouldn't need vouchers. It's never going to happen.
Then vouchers won't fix educational outcomes.
Yes they will for those who use them because private schools can do all those things.
Public schools cannot be fixed. Too many leftists are involved.
Such a quitter. More conservatives need to become teachers but they're too selfish to do so. Most conservatives are too comfortable to do the work needed.
Howdy, it is me! said:Ags4DaWin said:m-walker said:
As far as my little to none research, just assumptions…
Main argument is that they will go to families who don't need it. Why spend more money giving vouchers to people are already go to private school?
Because you have to be accepted to private schools, minorities can still face discrimination. They won't be able to use the vouchers if they can't get into the school in the first place.
This ain't the 1960's.
Virtually noone who is a minority is getting turned down because of skin color.
Vouchers should be for everyone. You shouldn't have to apply.
If these proposed bills applied to every school aged child, it would cost over $60B.
What you describe should be exceedingly rare.textar4404 said:
I have no idea if this is how it works, but it's what I keep hearing from teachers I know. I would love to know from those that actually have dug into the bill to understand how it would really work...
Hypothetical situation:
Family chooses to send their child to a private school. Voucher funding goes to the private school at the start of the school year.
One to two months in, student is determined to be a severe behavior problem and private school kicks them out using whatever remedies they have.
Student is forced to return to public school after being removed from private school.
Private school retains the voucher funding and the public school now has to absorb the cost to bring the student in.
Private school keeps the voucher funding and the public school is now running in the red for funding.
Is this how it will work, or is there a mechanism for the residual funding to follow the student based on days attending per school year?
Ags4DaWin said:Howdy, it is me! said:Ags4DaWin said:m-walker said:
As far as my little to none research, just assumptions…
Main argument is that they will go to families who don't need it. Why spend more money giving vouchers to people are already go to private school?
Because you have to be accepted to private schools, minorities can still face discrimination. They won't be able to use the vouchers if they can't get into the school in the first place.
This ain't the 1960's.
Virtually noone who is a minority is getting turned down because of skin color.
Vouchers should be for everyone. You shouldn't have to apply.
If these proposed bills applied to every school aged child, it would cost over $60B.
Take what the state pays per student and give everyone a voucher for that amount.
Let parents apply to the school they want their children to go to or use the vouchers on private school tuition, their choice.
If you want to homeschooling, you get nothing.
Easy peezey.
It doesn't cost any extra than what we are currently paying.
Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:Logos Stick said:Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:
I'm a 20+ year public educator who is pro-school vouchers as long as we start allowing public schools to operate similarly to charter and private schools.
If we don't want to, we don't offer special education services. If we want to, we can kick out any kid. If we don't want to, we don't use standardized tests. If we're going to allow some parents to decide if they are happy with their educational choices without state interference, all parents should have that choice. Public schools choose what they teach, not the state.
If we did that to public schools, we wouldn't need vouchers. It's never going to happen.
Then vouchers won't fix educational outcomes.
jopatura said:
How school funding currently works:
A long time ago, it was written into the Texas Constitution that ISD property taxes could only fund education.
...
Now, I don't think vouchers are inherently evil anymore, but they need to be part of a completely overhauled system. The only proposals I've seen around vouchers deal with drawing money out of the property tax system to line pockets that it was never supposed to line. Until the state pays back all the lottery money and general fund money that it's drained from the system, I have no faith they actually want to do right by education in Texas.
5% of $4.786 billion is $293 million a year, paid just to hand out money. I'd donate $12 mil to the Texas governor to earn that kind of income annually. BTW, a "CEAO" is just another company that may also be masquerading as an NGO. Like a USAID deal.Quote:
The bill would define "certified educational assistance organization" (CEAO) and set eligibility requirements for the selection of such organizations by the Comptroller. The Comptroller could certify not more than five such organizations to support the administration of the program.
The bill would establish the procedure for a CEAO, at the direction of the Comptroller, to allocate available participant positions and to select program participants if there were more acceptable applications than available positions due to insufficient funding. Each school year, the bill would require the Comptroller to make disbursements from the program account to each CEAO to hold in trust for the benefit of participating children; such money held in trust would be deposited to each participant's account quarterly.
The Comptroller could deduct an amount from total appropriations for the program not to exceed three percent to cover the cost of administering the program. The Comptroller would disburse funds each quarter to the CEAOs to cover their cost of administering the program in an amount not to exceed five percent of fiscal year appropriations for the program. Each quarter, any interest earned on the money held by CEAOs would be remitted to the Comptroller for deposit into the program fund account.
sanangelo said:jopatura said:
How school funding currently works:
A long time ago, it was written into the Texas Constitution that ISD property taxes could only fund education.
...
Now, I don't think vouchers are inherently evil anymore, but they need to be part of a completely overhauled system. The only proposals I've seen around vouchers deal with drawing money out of the property tax system to line pockets that it was never supposed to line. Until the state pays back all the lottery money and general fund money that it's drained from the system, I have no faith they actually want to do right by education in Texas.
I was not aware there are caps in SB2 and HB3 (if I get the bill numbers correct). The House bill is scored for cost in Fiscal Notes attached to the bill. It estimates the vouchers will cost $4.786 billion in FY 2030. The Fiscal Notes assume 50% of current private school students will take advantage of the bill year 1 and grow at a rate of 5% each year thereafter.
Vendors will make money with vouchers, as described in the Fiscal Note:5% of $4.786 billion is $293 million a year, paid just to hand out money. I'd donate $12 mil to the Texas governor to earn that kind of income annually. BTW, a "CEAO" is just another company that may also be masquerading as an NGO. Like a USAID deal.Quote:
The bill would define "certified educational assistance organization" (CEAO) and set eligibility requirements for the selection of such organizations by the Comptroller. The Comptroller could certify not more than five such organizations to support the administration of the program.
The bill would establish the procedure for a CEAO, at the direction of the Comptroller, to allocate available participant positions and to select program participants if there were more acceptable applications than available positions due to insufficient funding. Each school year, the bill would require the Comptroller to make disbursements from the program account to each CEAO to hold in trust for the benefit of participating children; such money held in trust would be deposited to each participant's account quarterly.
The Comptroller could deduct an amount from total appropriations for the program not to exceed three percent to cover the cost of administering the program. The Comptroller would disburse funds each quarter to the CEAOs to cover their cost of administering the program in an amount not to exceed five percent of fiscal year appropriations for the program. Each quarter, any interest earned on the money held by CEAOs would be remitted to the Comptroller for deposit into the program fund account.
Here's the Fiscal Note to HB3. Link.
Howdy, it is me! said:Ags4DaWin said:Howdy, it is me! said:Ags4DaWin said:m-walker said:
As far as my little to none research, just assumptions…
Main argument is that they will go to families who don't need it. Why spend more money giving vouchers to people are already go to private school?
Because you have to be accepted to private schools, minorities can still face discrimination. They won't be able to use the vouchers if they can't get into the school in the first place.
This ain't the 1960's.
Virtually noone who is a minority is getting turned down because of skin color.
Vouchers should be for everyone. You shouldn't have to apply.
If these proposed bills applied to every school aged child, it would cost over $60B.
Take what the state pays per student and give everyone a voucher for that amount.
Let parents apply to the school they want their children to go to or use the vouchers on private school tuition, their choice.
If you want to homeschooling, you get nothing.
Easy peezey.
It doesn't cost any extra than what we are currently paying.
The problem with that is they tried this, many times, and it was wildly unpopular. Teachers and others complained about taking money out of the schools.
"abject"Ags4DaWin said:Howdy, it is me! said:Ags4DaWin said:Howdy, it is me! said:Ags4DaWin said:m-walker said:
As far as my little to none research, just assumptions…
Main argument is that they will go to families who don't need it. Why spend more money giving vouchers to people are already go to private school?
Because you have to be accepted to private schools, minorities can still face discrimination. They won't be able to use the vouchers if they can't get into the school in the first place.
This ain't the 1960's.
Virtually noone who is a minority is getting turned down because of skin color.
Vouchers should be for everyone. You shouldn't have to apply.
If these proposed bills applied to every school aged child, it would cost over $60B.
Take what the state pays per student and give everyone a voucher for that amount.
Let parents apply to the school they want their children to go to or use the vouchers on private school tuition, their choice.
If you want to homeschooling, you get nothing.
Easy peezey.
It doesn't cost any extra than what we are currently paying.
The problem with that is they tried this, many times, and it was wildly unpopular. Teachers and others complained about taking money out of the schools.
Ohhhhh teachers complained.....well then by all means it was a total abstract failure!
Jeeper79 said:The biggest problem with public schools isn't leftists. By a wide margin, it's parents that don't care to be involved. Republican education reform absolutely would not fix schools, either. Blaming leftists here is a red herring. Parents and students have to choose for themselves to be better and no political party can do that for them.Logos Stick said:Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:Logos Stick said:Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:
I'm a 20+ year public educator who is pro-school vouchers as long as we start allowing public schools to operate similarly to charter and private schools.
If we don't want to, we don't offer special education services. If we want to, we can kick out any kid. If we don't want to, we don't use standardized tests. If we're going to allow some parents to decide if they are happy with their educational choices without state interference, all parents should have that choice. Public schools choose what they teach, not the state.
If we did that to public schools, we wouldn't need vouchers. It's never going to happen.
Then vouchers won't fix educational outcomes.
Yes they will for those who use them because private schools can do all those things.
Public schools cannot be fixed. Too many leftists are involved.
Over_ed said:
But, for everyone who is against govt being involved in home schooling, tell me how we prevent a large number of the worst parents "home schooling" their kids with no intent to educate, just to collect the voucher, and amazingly leaving those kids actually worse off than if they went to the generally crappy public schools?
You're right that it's a babysitting service for half the kids, but that's not fixed by conservative policies. If you think that's not right, what's the conservative solution? And don't say expulsion because that only masks the problem. Those kids still end up stupid. They're just now unaccounted for.Logos Stick said:Jeeper79 said:The biggest problem with public schools isn't leftists. By a wide margin, it's parents that don't care to be involved. Republican education reform absolutely would not fix schools, either. Blaming leftists here is a red herring. Parents and students have to choose for themselves to be better and no political party can do that for them.Logos Stick said:Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:Logos Stick said:Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:
I'm a 20+ year public educator who is pro-school vouchers as long as we start allowing public schools to operate similarly to charter and private schools.
If we don't want to, we don't offer special education services. If we want to, we can kick out any kid. If we don't want to, we don't use standardized tests. If we're going to allow some parents to decide if they are happy with their educational choices without state interference, all parents should have that choice. Public schools choose what they teach, not the state.
If we did that to public schools, we wouldn't need vouchers. It's never going to happen.
Then vouchers won't fix educational outcomes.
Yes they will for those who use them because private schools can do all those things.
Public schools cannot be fixed. Too many leftists are involved.
The problem is 100% leftists. We've always had parents who were not involved. You think that is some new phenomenon?
Back before leftists took over: kids could be disciplined, expelled, segregated, kids could be separated in the classroom based on ability, etc... Leftists changed all that. Liberals and leftism ruined public schools!
Leftists use the "parents are not involved" as an excuse for the failure to continue their idiotic policies and ideology.
It's nothing but a babysitting service for 50% of the kids so leftists can grift. Leftists love workfare and the public school system is a main pillar of workfare.
How is it a windfall for parents if private schools simply bump tuition up the amount of the voucher? Yeah, it means more money for the school, but the parents still owe the same amount of money they were paying before the vouchers went into effect.PGAG said:
The voucher push is not and has never been about improving student outcomes. It is essentially a huge windfall for private schools and parents of students in private schools.
