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who is gonna insure you are actually teaching the kid anything and not.just pocketing the money and creating an even bigger burden on society.

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Who is safeguarding the public schools from kids not learning and the siphoning of public money into private hands now? Because they are failing.

This whole "sorry, kid, we can't give you the freedom to thrive because others might fail at it" is confounding to me.

Do you think we should only have government grocery stores and restaurants because some parents are going to make bad choices for their kids?

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Not seeing how 1-2% of the school-aged population (of which MUCH LESS is projected to be public school students leaving for a voucher) is going to put enough pressure on the public schools to cause any significant change.

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I don't put much faith in those projections.

When parents see other kids thrive in alternative education programs, they will seek out those same opportunities.

It's why they sell $300 bats for 8 year old baseball players. Parents want what's best for their kids.

And it's not hard at all to put up a school model that beats the public school option in most areas.

cevans_40 said:

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Dark_Knight said:

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I just thought it was going to allow students to do private, switch districts, or better able to home school. Like the money would move with you depending on your choice. I'm not sure why that's a hard concept to put to a bill. If my student isn't going to public school, then my school tax should come back to me. They wouldn't be a burden to the district, so there's really no money lost.

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Yeah but how much money and who is gonna insure you are actually teaching the kid anything and not.just pocketing the money and creating an even bigger burden on society.

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These bills do not allow for the ability to pocket the money. It goes straight from the comptroller to the vendor.

Conflating private and charter? Maybe it was explained to me incorrectly. I thought when a kid goes to charter the tax dollars for the student's household now direct from the public district to the charter. Your neighbor with no kids still pays into the public district. Those on the private side just want that school tax to go to their private school kid the same way it does in charter. They'll still be on the hook for balance between tuition and the tax redirect.

There is an IDEA charter school with bus service on Spears Rd in Houston. Several public schools in close proximity to it. I would assume most in that district are underserved from the public schools but now have a close option with bus service.

Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

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AGC said:

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Ghost of Andrew Eaton said:

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sam callahan said:

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My opinion is that a one size fits all system becomes a race to the lowest common denominator. That freedom and choice drive innovation. That we have more tools and resources available than ever before and we are stuck in an old model. That instead of designing a system on poor expectations, we should throw off the chains and shoot for spectacular. That we shouldn't fear excellence. Let the high achievers pull everyone up instead of letting the worst case examples pull everyone down.

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Below is what I wrote earlier and I was told it's not a reasonable option

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I'm a 20+ year public educator who is pro-school vouchers as long as we start allowing public schools to operate similarly to charter and private schools.

If we don't want to, we don't offer special education services. If we want to, we can kick out any kid. If we don't want to, we don't use standardized tests. If we're going to allow some parents to decide if they are happy with their educational choices without state interference, all parents should have that choice. Public schools choose what they teach, not the state.

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It's not a reasonable opinion. State education exists as a backstop specifically for those people to have a chance. However, none of the teachers seem to want to teach hard kids; they want the easy ones with parents who care, which is why vouchers are a big deal.

There's also a reason teachers in this thread don't tout educational outcomes of the children (reading/writing levels, etc.). The system is bad but it pays well and staffs a lot of people. It's a jobs program where the cogs point the finger for outcomes and have few successes along the way to tell us about.

The system sucks and people shouldn't be stuck paying for a terrible system, from a state or local level, if their kids aren't in it. Whatever people think public education is, that's a thing of the past.

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So you agree that this bill doesn't reform education and keeps public schools playing by the state's rules that have led to the current state of public ed? Why not let the local community run them?

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100%. I hope the bill burns. I want funding to follow the kid instead. Just recognize that public will always be responsible for the kids no teacher wants because that's its purpose. How they handle it needs to change, but it's not going away (nor should it).

sam callahan said:

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Quote:

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Not seeing how 1-2% of the school-aged population (of which MUCH LESS is projected to be public school students leaving for a voucher) is going to put enough pressure on the public schools to cause any significant change.

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I don't put much faith in those projections.

When parents see other kids thrive in alternative education programs, they will seek out those same opportunities.

It's why they sell $300 bats for 8 year old baseball players. Parents want what's best for their kids.

And it's not hard at all to put up a school model that beats the public school option in most areas.

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Ok, even if every voucher was taken by a public school student that's still less than 100k students the first year in a pool of over 5M to the tune of $1B.

Again, I'm not advocating for the current proposed bill.

I'm advocating for the school choice concept. That we somehow manage to fill our legislature with ineptitude should not be a strike against the merits of vouchers.

sam callahan said:

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Again, I'm not advocating for the current proposed bill.

I'm advocating for the school choice concept. That we somehow manage to fill our legislature with ineptitude should not be a strike against the merits of vouchers.

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And again, this thread is about the current bills. Which are bad. You and everyone else need to ask you Rep to vote "No".

Discussing the merit of vouchers seems like a waste of time. We can discuss until we are blue in the face but what matters is what is being proposed.

Macro level discussions are just muddying the waters for people trying to learn and understand the current bills.

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Discussing the merit of vouchers seems like a waste of time.

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It's not.

People - including many on this thread - are conflating the bad things about this bill with the entire idea of school choice. It's exactly why so many think the bill has poison pills.

sam callahan said:

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Quote:

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Discussing the merit of vouchers seems like a waste of time.

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It's not.

People - including many on this thread - are conflating the bad things about this bill with the entire idea of school choice. It's exactly why so many think the bill has poison pills.

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Have you read the bills? I don't think so. So, I'm not sure you can disregard the feelings of those who have.

If you want to have a macro level discussion, perhaps that's best for a different thread. The OP asked for insight on the current bills; the ones, that if passed, will
shape all future legislation on this topic.

And it took one response to bring in macro arguments and not specific to the bill. And the thread is full of macro level debate. I must have overlooked you trying to clear up the water by speaking out against those macro level arguments against school choice in general.

I'm sorry you have an issue with my perspective that a bad bill shouldn't veto the entire discussion. You think you'd be happy that I am not supporting the bill.

I am just speaking out against using the bill as a proxy for all school choice options, which is directly relevant to the bill.

sam callahan said:

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And it took one response to bring in macro arguments and not specific to the bill. And the thread is full of macro level debate. I must have overlooked you trying to clear up the water by speaking out against those macro level arguments against school choice in general.

I'm sorry you have an issue with my perspective that a bad bill shouldn't veto the entire discussion. You think you'd be happy that I am not supporting the bill.

I am just speaking out against using the bill as a proxy for all school choice options, which is directly relevant to the bill.

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I'm not interested in speaking out against vouchers at the macro level at the moment or on this thread. I'm interested in educating people on the current bills.

I am very glad you don't support the current bills and truly hope you tell your Representative that.

https://www.txdirectory.com/online/txhouse/?fbclid=IwZXh0bgNhZW0CMTEAAR3r4PRLk7fPIUd-EBn_8knHLk-vD3XoQUbU0mwpHjaNoXc-QDmFduKzlN0_aem_pxYnEgHGrhRSGoXzo5oTZQ

For Home School kids to get the money they have to use a list of state approved vendors?

Aggie97 said:

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For Home School kids to get the money they have to use a list of state approved vendors?

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Yes.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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I despise how these are called school "choice" bills. They are not. They are FUNDING bills.

I already pay for a system I don't use. I don't want to pay for another one.

People can choose to withdraw their child from public education right now this very moment. Maybe they will have to make some sacrifices to do so, but it's their private choice and they should be the ones to fund it.

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Howdy! You are so correct. This school voucher bill will add another massive entitlement that I predict will cost $20 billion a year within a decade - the House already said it will cost $4 billion within 4 years. The public schools in Texas cost us almost $100 billion a year this year. The TXLEGE will INCREASE spending to the public schools by billions while adding a multi-billion welfare program for the wealthy at the same time. No money will be cut from public schools to "follow the student." That's bs sales talk from, among others, the former gay porn star promoting this private school voucher boondoggle.

The committee meeting was rescheduled for Thursday - there is still time to call and voice your opposition!

Confirmation on the delay to thurs and the reason why

Please see my statement below regarding the postponement of the April 1 Public Education meeting. #txlege pic.twitter.com/dksT25wCbz

— Brad Buckley (@BradBuckleyDVM) April 1, 2025

General top level principle:

-My tax money should follow my school age kids in accordance with however much I pay in property taxes.
-ISDs absolutely blow money out the ying yang, its only getting worse, everyone gets an accommodation, and districts love huge wasteful spending on tech.
-All of this to be hamstrung by a terrible system of testing demanded at the state level, and lack of ability to remove problem kids.

Katy ISD is down to 20 minute recesses for elementary age kids.
HISD isn't even requiring their high school students to even read a book cover to cover. New super is all about getting test scores up and that only requires passages. This is practically criminal in my mind. And just shows how much of every decision isn't even about the kids.

Feeding an order of magnitude more money into the machine wouldn't change any outcomes. They've been doing that since the 70s.

Its never been easier to send my kid to private school. If the public school I went to in K-12 was still around in teaching, administration, and student capacities that I had it'd be a harder call. But today, its not.

This generation has never received such empty certifications and are the least prepared for college or addressing the higher level questions of life.

This whole thing is a microcosm of why american conservativism is dead in the water and just a 30 year lag behind democrats. Rural republicans teaming up with democrats to keep the small town 'good job' gravy train going.

The suburbanite republicans who just want to escape the declining standards of public school are blasted for wanting to be on the receiving end of their own tax dollars for once.

one MEEN Ag said:

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General top level principle:

-My tax money should follow my school age kids in accordance with however much I pay in property taxes.
-ISDs absolutely blow money out the ying yang, its only getting worse, everyone gets an accommodation, and districts love huge wasteful spending on tech.
-All of this to be hamstrung by a terrible system of testing demanded at the state level, and lack of ability to remove problem kids.

Katy ISD is down to 20 minute recesses for elementary age kids.
HISD isn't even requiring their high school students to even read a book cover to cover. New super is all about getting test scores up and that only requires passages. This is practically criminal in my mind. And just shows how much of every decision isn't even about the kids.

Feeding an order of magnitude more money into the machine wouldn't change any outcomes. They've been doing that since the 70s.

Its never been easier to send my kid to private school. If the public school I went to in K-12 was still around in teaching, administration, and student capacities that I had it'd be a harder call. But today, its not.

This generation has never received such empty certifications and are the least prepared for college or addressing the higher level questions of life.

---

The good news is, you do have the choice to enroll your children in private school today. As for the funding of that choice, that's what bills such as SB2 and HB3 are trying to provide. Unfortunately, on top of other issues with these bills, the allocated money is not aligned with what families pay in taxes.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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one MEEN Ag said:

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General top level principle:

-My tax money should follow my school age kids in accordance with however much I pay in property taxes.
-ISDs absolutely blow money out the ying yang, its only getting worse, everyone gets an accommodation, and districts love huge wasteful spending on tech.
-All of this to be hamstrung by a terrible system of testing demanded at the state level, and lack of ability to remove problem kids.

Katy ISD is down to 20 minute recesses for elementary age kids.
HISD isn't even requiring their high school students to even read a book cover to cover. New super is all about getting test scores up and that only requires passages. This is practically criminal in my mind. And just shows how much of every decision isn't even about the kids.

Feeding an order of magnitude more money into the machine wouldn't change any outcomes. They've been doing that since the 70s.

Its never been easier to send my kid to private school. If the public school I went to in K-12 was still around in teaching, administration, and student capacities that I had it'd be a harder call. But today, its not.

This generation has never received such empty certifications and are the least prepared for college or addressing the higher level questions of life.

---

The good news is, you do have the choice to enroll your children in private school today. As for the funding of that choice, that's what bills such as SB2 and HB3 are trying to provide. Unfortunately, on top of other issues with these bills, the allocated money is not aligned with what families pay in taxes.

---

Very few families actually pay the per student rack rate to public schools. Only the most wealthy estates are having to drop 15k for HISD. Even fewer handing over 30k to fully cover their multiple children. This of course is because its all the property in an area. So a small siphon here isn't going to kill the budget.

Every public educator bemoaning how a few thousand per student who wants it is going to move the needle. Its not. I pay 15k a year per kid for private school. The vouchers is a help, but its not about to move the masses to private school until the vouchers start going to full rate. You gotta really want it to stick around in private school.

If you gave each parent who wants it a 5k voucher, they'd still balk at the average 10k balance, drive times, pick ups, and extracurricular differences. And this isn't even speaking to the religious alignment component or if even a private school wants you for only being interested in private school because of its new low low price. The loudest boos come from the cheapest seats and they know that.

There's a lot of beat up old minivans in the private school pickup line. Not every private school is the 'full feature' 35k a kid rate. And seeing how much can get done on such tighter budgets is just eye opening compared to the public school options.

Again, all I want is just my money back for my kids for the years they are school age. The district can have it back and piss it away on whatever else they want once my kids are grown.

As a side note, one of the most eye opening things about classical education is how much is missing from public school education. And how you really can't teach classical education in a scantron, mass test environment. So you really aren't even getting in the same ballpark as public schools. And the state just does not care because its not mass manufacturable.

What is the uniting thesis of a public school education these days? Coming off bottom knowing how to read and write? How much damage did that one woman do with her generation of teachings on guessing phonetics in the name of getting kids reading at an earlier age?

There is a reason why public schools are such a battle ground for every bit of cultural rot that conservatives rail against. Its because there isn't any capabilities or desire to even dive deeply into rhetoric, philosophy and natural law anymore. There is nothing shaping conservative public schooling besides playing defense to LGBT/BLM whatever cultural marxist thought is popular.

So public school conservatives are basically the same as all those other democrats who just want free stuff from the government. Not willing to put down the disney vacations so they can hit eject on public school crap.

one MEEN Ag said:

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There is a reason why public schools are such a battle ground for every bit of cultural rot that conservatives rail against. Its because there isn't any capabilities or desire to even dive deeply into rhetoric, philosophy and natural law anymore. There is nothing shaping conservative public schooling besides playing defense to LGBT/BLM whatever cultural marxist thought is popular.

---

This is the problem with public schools: cultural rot. The schools are a symptom of the larger problem with American modern culture, what Dr. Francis Schaeffer would label 'Post-Christian Existentialist Paganism.' It came to a head when the Left denounced parents for not allowing the establishment to convince their kids to mutilate their privates. The transgender thing was 2 bridges too far and woke many up.

How to fix public schools when society is in decay is another question. In the case of SB2 and HB3, it will become a very expensive attempt at a solution. However, there is nothing in either bill that would prevent a mosque from opening a madrassa in Richmond/Rosenburg to teach Sharia Law either.

one MEEN Ag said:

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Howdy, it is me! said:

---

one MEEN Ag said:

---

General top level principle:

-My tax money should follow my school age kids in accordance with however much I pay in property taxes.
-ISDs absolutely blow money out the ying yang, its only getting worse, everyone gets an accommodation, and districts love huge wasteful spending on tech.
-All of this to be hamstrung by a terrible system of testing demanded at the state level, and lack of ability to remove problem kids.

Katy ISD is down to 20 minute recesses for elementary age kids.
HISD isn't even requiring their high school students to even read a book cover to cover. New super is all about getting test scores up and that only requires passages. This is practically criminal in my mind. And just shows how much of every decision isn't even about the kids.

Feeding an order of magnitude more money into the machine wouldn't change any outcomes. They've been doing that since the 70s.

Its never been easier to send my kid to private school. If the public school I went to in K-12 was still around in teaching, administration, and student capacities that I had it'd be a harder call. But today, its not.

This generation has never received such empty certifications and are the least prepared for college or addressing the higher level questions of life.

---

The good news is, you do have the choice to enroll your children in private school today. As for the funding of that choice, that's what bills such as SB2 and HB3 are trying to provide. Unfortunately, on top of other issues with these bills, the allocated money is not aligned with what families pay in taxes.

---

Very few families actually pay the per student rack rate to public schools. Only the most wealthy estates are having to drop 15k for HISD. Even fewer handing over 30k to fully cover their multiple children. This of course is because its all the property in an area. So a small siphon here isn't going to kill the budget.

Every public educator bemoaning how a few thousand per student who wants it is going to move the needle. Its not. I pay 15k a year per kid for private school. The vouchers is a help, but its not about to move the masses to private school until the vouchers start going to full rate. You gotta really want it to stick around in private school.

If you gave each parent who wants it a 5k voucher, they'd still balk at the average 10k balance, drive times, pick ups, and extracurricular differences. And this isn't even speaking to the religious alignment component or if even a private school wants you for only being interested in private school because of its new low low price. The loudest boos come from the cheapest seats and they know that.

There's a lot of beat up old minivans in the private school pickup line. Not every private school is the 'full feature' 35k a kid rate. And seeing how much can get done on such tighter budgets is just eye opening compared to the public school options.

Again, all I want is just my money back for my kids for the years they are school age. The district can have it back and piss it away on whatever else they want once my kids are grown.

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Your final paragraph - can't say I'd argue with ya. This is why we need tax reform. If they don't take it in the first place, we don't have to worry about strings.

sanangelo said:

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one MEEN Ag said:

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There is a reason why public schools are such a battle ground for every bit of cultural rot that conservatives rail against. Its because there isn't any capabilities or desire to even dive deeply into rhetoric, philosophy and natural law anymore. There is nothing shaping conservative public schooling besides playing defense to LGBT/BLM whatever cultural marxist thought is popular.

---

This is the problem with public schools: cultural rot. The schools are a symptom of the larger problem with American modern culture, what Dr. Francis Schaeffer would label 'Post-Christian Existentialist Paganism.' It came to a head when the Left denounced parents for not allowing the establishment to convince their kids to mutilate their privates. The transgender thing was 2 bridges too far and woke many up.

How to fix public schools when society is in decay is another question. In the case of SB2 and HB3, it will become a very expensive attempt at a solution. However, there is nothing in either bill that would prevent a mosque from opening a madrassa in Richmond/Rosenburg to teach Sharia Law either.

---

I agree with the term 'post christian existentialist paganism', but I think we've been here far longer than we'd like to realize. Most of america isn't prepared to deal with the brave new world we're inheriting. Where we have a huge clash of global cultures on even footing and yet no firm foundation of truth and authority imbued within this nation's people.

America is generally protestant and especially evangelical protestant in areas that are doing the most outright voicing of rejecting the last couple of years of educational teachings. But protestantism (especially any version after anglicanism) struggles with even teaching the roots of truth and how its foundational to classical education. Mostly because an evangelical church doesn't want to spend much time teaching the early church, or church authority because it brings up their lack of authority within Christianity.

So we've got a political party of people who are mostly just putting up a fight but slowly compromising to bad to things, without really spending much time in any K-12, post secondary, or through church deeply educating about what is immovable and why.

I don't think public school conservatives will ever win the battle here because they just want to reset the political climate clock by only 15 years, not 1500.

Agreed. My thoughts are that rural kids won't have access to private schools so other than home schooling, they have no choice. Home schooling won't work as many are either single parent families or both parents work.

AgDadx2 said:

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Agreed. My thoughts are that rural kids won't have access to private schools so other than home schooling, they have no choice. Home schooling won't work as many are either single parent families or both parents work.

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Everyone has a choice, even those families in rural areas. No one is making them stay in their rural town. No one is making both parents work two jobs.

I understand that moving or quitting jobs may require sacrifice or lead to undue hardship, but that doesn't mean the choice isn't there, it just means they are choosing to stay in that area or continue with a dual income. Many families choose to only have one income so a parent can stay home with the kids. Even single moms have chosen to homeschool. If a particular private school is preferred, maybe a relocation is necessary.

I really don't like the "choice" language around these bills. It's about funding, not choice. It's about having the money to help fund your choice.

I understand the use of the word choice that you are making. Where I live is a mostly farm and ranch area so making the decision to sell the family farm isn't much of an option, but I get your point.

Howdy, it is me! said:

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AgDadx2 said:

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Agreed. My thoughts are that rural kids won't have access to private schools so other than home schooling, they have no choice. Home schooling won't work as many are either single parent families or both parents work.

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Everyone has a choice, even those families in rural areas. No one is making them stay in their rural town. No one is making both parents work two jobs.

I understand that moving or quitting jobs may require sacrifice or lead to undue hardship, but that doesn't mean the choice isn't there, it just means they are choosing to stay in that area or continue with a dual income. Many families choose to only have one income so a parent can stay home with the kids. Even single moms have chosen to homeschool. If a particular private school is preferred, maybe a relocation is necessary.

I really don't like the "choice" language around these bills. It's about funding, not choice. It's about having the money to help fund your choice.

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And the current families dissatisfied with their public school option have the choice to move into a new school district.

No governmental intrusion required into the existing private school market.

I'm in Oklahoma and we passed a school choice bill a couple of years ago.

Coops and private schools are popping up all over, including rural towns. They are largely being staffed by teachers escaping public schools and some professionals that have paused their careers to be stay at home parents.

I can't speak to differences in what we passed vs what is being proposed for Texas.

It has definitely expanded choices for both students and teachers though.

Good info. Thanks.

AgDadx2 said:

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I understand the use of the word choice that you are making. Where I live is a mostly farm and ranch area so making the decision to sell the family farm isn't much of an option, but I get your point.

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I really appreciate your kind reply. You could have so easily argued but man it's refreshing that someone understands.

I just think words are important and the way Abbott and our elected reps talk about these bills make it seem like parents don't have the choice today, or at the very least don't have to jump through hoops, to put their kids in private school or homeschool which just simply not the case.

MasonB said:

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I'm in Oklahoma and we passed a school choice bill a couple of years ago.

Coops and private schools are popping up all over, including rural towns. They are largely being staffed by teachers escaping public schools and some professionals that have paused their careers to be stay at home parents.

I can't speak to differences in what we passed vs what is being proposed for Texas.

It has definitely expanded choices for both students and teachers though.

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I'd be curious to know if these pop-ups have to be accredited. For new schools to begin receiving vouchers, it'll take some time.

one MEEN Ag said:

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"So public school conservatives are basically the same as all those other democrats who just want free stuff from the government. Not willing to put down the disney vacations so they can hit eject on public school crap."

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I mean no disrespect, but how how this different from your wanting to stop paying public school taxes while you have kids in school? Or am I misunderstanding one of your other posts?

I don't have kids, but have been paying school taxes (directly or indirectly) my entire adult life. Do you think that everyone who has kids in school should have the option to take their money and spend it as they want? (public, charter, private, home...)? This will grow over time to be many billions of dollars. Where is that money going to come from? We already don't own our property, just rent it through the appraisal office.

If you have kids and are not supporting public schools, why should those without kids be forced to pay for public schools?

Seems to me that there is a societal obligation here. And, don't get me wrong, I think that the public schools that most (certainly more than half) Texas school childeren go to are either inadequate or very poor.

I think a more reasonble approach might entail your receiving some money back, but that the bulk of your school taxes should go to public schools. And suck it up like the rest of us.

BTW, I would support any even crazy ideas to make parents and/or public schools more accountable for student success.