GAC06 said:

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On the bigger thread of terrible EV takes

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Oh ya. The one where he posted daily updates 4 or 5 times a day while accusing others of being obsessed with EV's. I remember now.

techno-ag said:

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This is one of the reasons people don't like to engage in discussions with you on here. When it comes to EVs something just clicks inside you I guess.

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Next fuggin level irony right here.

techno-ag said:

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Teslag said:

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No one is disputing China is monitoring EV's. We are trying to get it through your head that it doesn't matter because they (and anyone else) could just as easily monitor and control modern ICE vehicles as well.

Basically it's a completely irrelevant argument but you for some reason you can't grasp that. At all. With any ability whatsoever.

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I will try again. Read the part quoted above. The Chi-coms specifically monitor EVs. They have a bureau for it called the Shanghai Electric Vehicle Public Data Collecting, Monitoring and Research Center. No one is disputing that ICE vehicles can't also be monitored. I know why you keep hammering away on that but that's the goal posts moving. ICE vehicles don't get the same level of OTA updates. Nowhere near as much. EVs are far more capable, more connected, have more cameras, etc. etc. etc.

My point stands. China loves EVs for a reason.

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YouBet said:

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Deputy Travis Junior said:

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It isn't utopia, but it is what's coming in the next decade. Home charging and better driving performance will push people to EVs when all else is equal.

Also, every conservative has a negative knee jerk reaction against anything green these days because liberals used omg climate as a dictatorial cudgel for decades, but there are actual, REAL benefits to it. Look at pictures of LA in the 70s or go visit Mexico City today. Smog and pollution are nasty and measurably reduce your quality of life. Fission + EVs is a much better future.

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Sure, but let the market take us there - not the government. We wasted the last 5-6 years on EV's based on b.s.

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Covid. Biden. The far left regime shoving down our throats with disdain and superior intelligence. Us conservatives are all just stupid and need to be told what's good for us.

hph6203 said:

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1. "I didn't say tariffs were free market."

2. "We should let the free market decide."

3. "We can't let China participate in that market."

See: 1.

I am not an advocate for the free market. I don't pretend to be. I don't agree with the subsidies for EVs, I think some aspects of the tariffs are good policy. I don't say let the free market decide like a mantra, because it makes what I say sound more rational or benevolent. That is what people that say "let the free market decide" are doing. Living in a fiction where any market is actually free. The governments of the world are involved in every market.

The free market only exists in textbooks.

Chinas low cost batteries and solar panels are not primarily a function of ongoing subsidization, it's a result of a foresight on their part that they would be a more viable future for their country and competitive globally and injecting tons of money into those industries to share the upfront capital burden and increase production. If all government interference in those industries stopped in China (to the degree they can), their cars would still be cheaper than the domestic versions and still cost competitive with ICE vehicles.

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Ok...you aren't an advocate for the free market. Noted.

Then, when someone posts "Let the free market decide", state that.

Say that you don't want the free market to decide.

Then, your next comment about tariffs on lithium batteries (that are mainly made in China) and allowing Chinese EVs into our auto market would make sense-ish.

Well, not really, because it appeared you were using your post as an argument in SUPPORT OF the free market to debate his point. Otherwise your post in response to his makes no sense.

BTW, their low cost on EVERYTHING is primarily a function of government support (or call it subsidization). Their labor is not technically slave labor, but it isn't that far off. Their "ongoing costs" are subsidized by that factor.

I commiserate with ya, brother.

You aren't either. That's my point. You claim to be in favor of the free market, because it sounds good, but your requested implementation is not free market. Not at all. The point I

hph6203 said:

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You aren't either. That's my point. You claim to be in favor of the free market, because it sounds good, but your requested implementation is not free market. Not at all. The point I

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I didn't even say I was in favor of the free market. I am, but I didn't claim it...

I'm pointing out that when someone says "let the free market handle it", then bringing China into the conversation is a complete load of horse *****

Why bring China into a free market discussion when a) they're not a free market and b) you're not an advocate for a free market?

Well, other than to do what you do on every EV thread...

Ag with kids said:

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hph6203 said:

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You aren't either. That's my point. You claim to be in favor of the free market, because it sounds good, but your requested implementation is not free market. Not at all. The point I

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I didn't even say I was in favor of the free market. I am, but I didn't claim it...

I'm pointing out that when someone says "let the free market handle it", then bringing China into the conversation is a complete load of horse *****

Why bring China into a free market discussion when a) they're not a free market and b) you're not an advocate for a free market?

Well, other than to do what you do on every EV thread...

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You can't have a true Free Market discussion if you don't throw in Soviet Russia, Nazi Germany and Narnia.

It was a challenge to whether or not you actually support a free market or are just claiming to in order to sound principled. It's the latter. Very few people actually support a free market. A person who actually supports a free market would not also say don't allow China into the market. Those are contradictory statements and I'm not sure how that's hard to understand. You can't have a free market that restricts access.

What you're advocating for is what you perceive to be a fair market. A free market would say allow the entities in the market to determine whether China's subsidized batteries are beneficial to themselves without a market regulator making that determination for them.


China's batteries are cheap because they built supply chains, built manufacturing infrastructure and injected over a trillion dollars to make it cheap. They're cheaper than the rest of the world, not because they're operating under the floor of the real cost, but because they put money into it accelerating their path down the learning curve. Their batteries will get cheaper and better than where they are now, the rest of the world will trail behind down the same path, just later and slower.

A true free market wouldn't restrict trade with any of those entities and would leave it up to the participants whether it was beneficial to their interests to trade with them. That's the point.

In the past, I thought allowing Chinese cars into our market was a bad idea both from a safety standpoint and the damage it could cause our domestic market. As of late with the insane price increases and dwindling quality, I don't care much about the latter anymore. Maybe some competition will bring prices back down to reality.

aggieforester05 said:

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In the past, I thought allowing Chinese cars into our market was a bad idea both from a safety standpoint and the damage it could cause our domestic market. As of late with the insane price increases and dwindling quality, I don't care much about the latter anymore. Maybe some competition will bring prices back down to reality.

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Hey guys, I have an idea - let's run ALL of our industries out of business by forcing them to compete with Chinese subsidies.

aggieforester05 said:

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In the past, I thought allowing Chinese cars into our market was a bad idea both from a safety standpoint and the damage it could cause our domestic market. As of late with the insane price increases and dwindling quality, I don't care much about the latter anymore. Maybe some competition will bring prices back down to reality.

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They would be subject to all of the same standards that are driving quality or lack thereof in our own market. They would be cheaper but that's because they are CCP cars funded by the government. No one can compete with that. They would also likely have spyware. No thank you.

YouBet said:

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aggieforester05 said:

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In the past, I thought allowing Chinese cars into our market was a bad idea both from a safety standpoint and the damage it could cause our domestic market. As of late with the insane price increases and dwindling quality, I don't care much about the latter anymore. Maybe some competition will bring prices back down to reality.

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They would be subject to all of the same standards that are driving quality or lack thereof in our own market. They would be cheaper but that's because they are CCP cars funded by the government. No one can compete with that. They would also likely have spyware. No thank you.

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Unpossible. I am assured by fanboys that China does not spy via their EVs. Instead, they spy with new American pickup trucks.

aggieforester05 said:

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In the past, I thought allowing Chinese cars into our market was a bad idea both from a safety standpoint and the damage it could cause our domestic market. As of late with the insane price increases and dwindling quality, I don't care much about the latter anymore. Maybe some competition will bring prices back down to reality.

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Prices are where they are because people are wiling to pay them

Everything you do is spied on right now. Including visiting Texags. The spying on you is not what differentiates China and the rest of the world. It's the degree of restraint the government exhibits with access to that information.

Porsche profits dropped 99% in the last fiscal year, as they drive for 80% EV sales. Not gonna happen and they're in big trouble.

hph6203 said:

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Everything you do is spied on right now. Including visiting Texags. The spying on you is not what differentiates China and the rest of the world. It's the degree of restraint the government exhibits with access to that information.

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Swami said:

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Porsche profits dropped 99% in the last fiscal year, as they drive for 80% EV sales. Not gonna happen and they're in big trouble.

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It doesn't help that the worldwide economy is in the ****ter.

It ain't minimum wage earners buying, or trying to buy, their wares.

Swami said:

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Porsche profits dropped 99% in the last fiscal year, as they drive for 80% EV sales. Not gonna happen and they're in big trouble.

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See Jaguar.

YouBet said:

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Swami said:

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Porsche profits dropped 99% in the last fiscal year, as they drive for 80% EV sales. Not gonna happen and they're in big trouble.

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See Jaguar.

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Jag-yoo-ar also made that woke-ass commercial that is probably at least partially to blame for their losses.

BigRobSA said:

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YouBet said:

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Swami said:

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Porsche profits dropped 99% in the last fiscal year, as they drive for 80% EV sales. Not gonna happen and they're in big trouble.

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See Jaguar.

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Jag-yoo-ar also made that woke-ass commercial that is probably at least partially to blame for their losses.

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I would say that commercial and their gay CMO who told the market that they were going to focus on the gay and trans demographic at a $300k entry point probably did it as well. Was and will be the dumbest marketing move of all time. I look forward to the business case if anyone ever gets the balls to write it.

My Marketing prof in b school would be incredulous over this, and I would have loved to see his face when this was announced.

Yes and the Germans weren't as woke as the Indians (who own Jaguar) in hiring such a doofus to run marketing, plus they are uniformly backing away from those EV commitments/ICE phase out plans now.

Rumors are that Audi will wind up making Q5's as well as the SQ7 and E-trons in Chattanooga; tariffs I guess work after all. (VW builds the EV ID.4 next door, fwiw, and the EV Scouts will be build in the south as well).

Quote:

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Audi doesn't need more capacity

Back to the proposed Chattanooga plant: Audi's executive team is reportedly still weighing the final decision. The brand doesn't currently require additional production capacity, but it fears a sharp drop in US sales if tariffs are passed on to customers. That would push retail prices up and potentially impact volumes. Audi recently sold around 200,000 vehicles per year in the US.

According to Handelsblatt, CEO Gernot Döllner and the board are now revising Audi's strategy and sales targets. The new plan foresees annual US volumes rising to between 300,000 and 400,000 units. Globally, Audi is aiming for 2.2 to 2.3 million vehicles per year up from the current figure of around 1.7 million.

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More at the link…

That Scout is a badass looking vehicle. If they would put an ICE in it, it would sell like crazy.

The fact they dropped every single model and stopped production for a year while claiming the would become some big luxury brand... yet had two vague concept cars and nothing to look at while not producing cars is what killed them... the rich dont give a hoot about that commercial( even though it was dumb)

nortex97 said:

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Yes and the Germans weren't as woke as the Indians (who own Jaguar) in hiring such a doofus to run marketing, plus they are uniformly backing away from those EV commitments/ICE phase out plans now.

Rumors are that Audi will wind up making Q5's as well as the SQ7 and E-trons in Chattanooga; tariffs I guess work after all. (VW builds the EV ID.4 next door, fwiw, and the EV Scouts will be build in the south as well).

Quote:

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Audi doesn't need more capacity

Back to the proposed Chattanooga plant: Audi's executive team is reportedly still weighing the final decision. The brand doesn't currently require additional production capacity, but it fears a sharp drop in US sales if tariffs are passed on to customers. That would push retail prices up and potentially impact volumes. Audi recently sold around 200,000 vehicles per year in the US.

According to Handelsblatt, CEO Gernot Döllner and the board are now revising Audi's strategy and sales targets. The new plan foresees annual US volumes rising to between 300,000 and 400,000 units. Globally, Audi is aiming for 2.2 to 2.3 million vehicles per year up from the current figure of around 1.7 million.

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More at the link…

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VW already built cars in TN. VAG is often cross-platform equivalent, with small differences, so it's not a leap of tariff-based choice to make the Q5 where they already make its VW equal (Tiguan, IIRC) and so forth.

That's probably more a cost cutting move, more for lower transportation costs (drive it off the line and move it to a US destination vs shipping from Germany to a port, then moving in-country).

Ag_of_08 said:

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The fact they dropped every single model and stopped production for a year while claiming the would become some big luxury brand... yet had two vague concept cars and nothing to look at while not producing cars is what killed them... the rich dont give a hoot about that commercial( even though it was dumb)

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Yes, but they did that to segment their market down to the barest of slivers: (1) EV (2) Gays (3) uber high end price point. It's a catastrophic failure and the most insane marketing plan I've ever seen in business. I'm quite sure they have reversed course internally already if they haven't signaled to the market yet. I haven't followed them since they announced all of this because there is not a car company there to follow.

BigRobSA said:

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Swami said:

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Porsche profits dropped 99% in the last fiscal year, as they drive for 80% EV sales. Not gonna happen and they're in big trouble.

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It doesn't help that the worldwide economy is in the ****ter.

It ain't minimum wage earners buying, or trying to buy, their wares.

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In the ****ter? By what metrics? Honest question. I'm not baiting you.

The SQ7 shares little with any US VW. Similarly, the Q5 has been produced in (a) Slovakia (not any more) and (b) Mexico. It's tariffs driving the moves, not purely cost reduction.

There's been a common platform on the Q5 with VW but relatively few actual VW's are built on the longitudinally engined MLB, and none sold here. Certainly, the ID.4 has no relationship (other than perhaps some switchgear/battery cells) to the Audi's they are planning to/bringing to Chattanooga.

GenericAggie said:

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BigRobSA said:

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Swami said:

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Porsche profits dropped 99% in the last fiscal year, as they drive for 80% EV sales. Not gonna happen and they're in big trouble.

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It doesn't help that the worldwide economy is in the ****ter.

It ain't minimum wage earners buying, or trying to buy, their wares.

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In the ****ter? By what metrics? Honest question. I'm not baiting you.

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Here are some metrics:

European countries are having to back off their net zero carbon plans because they are fantasy and the average buyer can't afford a vehicle in that world.

Eurozone GDP was 0.8 in 2024, 1.3 in 2025 and projected about 1 for 2026. They are treading water. And it's likely going to get worse now that they've realized they have to start spending more money on their own defense whereas historically we were their defense.

Macron has been through 4 different Presidents in 2 years because they need to cut spending but the populace won't allow it. France is f'ed.

Germany is not too much better as the historical economic powerhouse of the EU. They have serious financial cracks as well.

If France and Germany continue to fail, then the EU will disintegrate.

Japan's GDP in 2024 was 0.2, 1.2 in 2025 and projected to be 0.7 in 2026.

YouBet said:

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GenericAggie said:

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BigRobSA said:

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Swami said:

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Porsche profits dropped 99% in the last fiscal year, as they drive for 80% EV sales. Not gonna happen and they're in big trouble.

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It doesn't help that the worldwide economy is in the ****ter.

It ain't minimum wage earners buying, or trying to buy, their wares.

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In the ****ter? By what metrics? Honest question. I'm not baiting you.

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Here are some metrics:

European countries are having to back off their net zero carbon plans because they are fantasy and the average buyer can't afford a vehicle in that world.

Eurozone GDP was 0.8 in 2024, 1.3 in 2025 and projected about 1 for 2026. They are treading water. And it's likely going to get worse now that they've realized they have to start spending more money on their own defense whereas historically we were their defense.

Macron has been through 4 different Presidents in 2 years because they need to cut spending but the populace won't allow it. France is f'ed.

Germany is not too much better as the historical economic powerhouse of the EU. They have serious financial cracks as well.

If France and Germany continue to fail, then the EU will disintegrate.

Japan's GDP in 2024 was 0.2, 1.2 in 2025 and projected to be 0.7 in 2026.

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And worldwide, inflation is killing things. Even here.

We're the strongest economy in the world, and even here it's not very rosy. Rosier than Europe/RoW? Sure. But that's a low bar.

More evidence sales hit the skids this year:

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Business/wireStory/tesla-loses-title-worlds-biggest-electric-vehicle-maker-128845275

Tesla is no longer the biggest EV maker they're losing so many sales.

Quote:

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Tesla said that it delivered 1.64 million vehicles in 2025, down 9% from a year earlier.

Chinese rival BYD, which sold 2.26 vehicles last year, is now the biggest EV maker.

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Even with major growth it sounds like they would have been second

techno-ag said:

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More evidence sales hit the skids this year:

https://abcnews.go.com/amp/Business/wireStory/tesla-loses-title-worlds-biggest-electric-vehicle-maker-128845275

Tesla is no longer the biggest EV maker they're losing so many sales.

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BEV sales are up ~20% YoY globally.