coolerguy12 said:

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Agreed. So the blackberry comparisons are stupid and the government shouldn't be in the business of putting its thumb on the scale. EVs work great for some people. It would just be an added expense for my family.

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Your use case is so far in the minority that it doesn't move the needle on the market.

I'm a little more open-minded to pure R&D tax credits and funding moonshot research industries where there is potentially an asymmetric national upside. Battery technology is an excellent use case. Eventually you reach a point where physics wins or the market has already absorbed the value and further credits make no sense. That's where we are with EVs. The free market will decide tbehe trajectory of electric vehicles not policy makers.

Nice to know you're good with the government trampling over the little guy that doesn't move the market.

Of course you supported vaccine mandates so I'm not surprised that you would take this stance.

R&D is great. Kneecapping ICE vehicles with onerous environmental regulations in the name of climate change is BS and everyone should be pissed about it.

Go to the automotive board and find a thread asking about truck brands. Consensus is that they all suck and make sure to get a good warranty. I guess it's better for the environment to scrap a truck and build a new one to replace it than to let it run for 25 years.

infinity ag said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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infinity ag said:

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Medaggie said:

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infinity ag said:

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Let's say you are driving from A to B, 300 miles apart. You are low on battery and you find a place to charge. How long does it take? A gas station refill takes 5-7 mins. What about a Tesla?

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I drove from North Austin to Corpus which was close to a 500 mile trip. My Tesla Y has 85K miles so maxes out at 280mile. Drove right to the outskirts of Corpus, charged for 10 minutes. Had a meeting, turned around and went to the same charger. Stopped for about 20 minutes and got home

I drive From Austin to CS all the time and roundtrip about 250 miles. My new Telsa would have made the trip without charging. Now with 280 vs 320 range, I would stop for about 5 minutes to get back home with 10% charge. My workplace in CS has a charger so I never need to charge for a RT from Austin to CS.

300 miles adds very little extra time for charging.

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Looks like a very good thing to me.

Not sure why many here start dancing whenever there is bad news about EVs.

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They might just be "drill , baby, drill" oil folk who are against anything that either liberals like (green energy EVs) or that negatively impacts the oil industry.

That or maybe they just don't like progress and are still driving cars with carburetors and no power steering and no AC?

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Yes, that's it.
Ultimately it is about money. The oil-heads here don't like EVs, it is pretty logical.

And being "conservative" means they want to conserve life as it was during their childhoods in the 50s or 60s.

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Not only is this statement an oversimplification, it is significantly inaccurate as well.

WTF do vehicle mandates have to do with anything l posted?

People always clap back with these nonsensical statements. No one is tell you that EVs are for everyone. This thread was not titles, "Get an EV or your an idiot" It was a EV bashing thread and people are just telling you that it has a place in the car market and has good value.

That would be like someone starting a ICE trashing thread and then I jump on refuting every ICE positives with why ICE doesn't work for me.

We get it, you don't need or want it but there is 20%+ in the world that it works for and this is the point. EVs are a good product.

Quote:

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Your use case is so far in the minority that it doesn't move the needle on the market.

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I'm pissed about government subsidies and hamstringing ICE vehicles. You hand waived it away by saying I'm so far in the minority that I don't move the market. Not sure how else to read into your comment.

Agreed 100%. Let's get the government out of the business of tilting the scales. That's where my complaint lies.

But if anyone says anything bad about EVs we get stupid comments about blackberries vs iPhones and grabbing a hot dog while your car charges. I don't give a crap what people drive. I do give a crap about the government trying to tilt the scales to coerce me to drive something that doesn't work for my family.

Here's what's going to happen:

• self driving vehicles will continue to get better, better than humans
• insurance rates will be based on how much the idiot human meat sack drives rather than the computer
• traffic and lower accident rates will have cities consider banning or charging a tax/toll for those who self-drive in urban areas.

There could be a self-driving gas car, but there isn't one yet. I think greater EV adoption will eventually lead to increased fuel prices, few gas stations, etc...

The ONLY benefit to gas is range. For the vast majority of folks that is not an issue. And as others have said, have both.

I have a Nissan Titan Turbodiesel with a Cummins engine I plan to keep forever so I can haul *****

I was anti EV for a long time, then our company changed our fleet vehicles to EV half ton Chevys. It was a freaking nightmare. I hated that truck for so many reasons. We got rid of them and now we are back to good ol LT 2500s with manual roll up windows like the good Lord intended lol.

Anyways, I travel all over the world and have ridden in some pretty sweet EV cars and would consider one if I needed a commuter car. But my lifestyle demands my F250 diesel. I don't think there are any EVs that can tow what it can, what I need it to or have the range. My lifestyle requires my current rig but I would give EVs a hard look if I needed a commuter car. I will say that once or twice a year we get calls (Im on the volunteer FD) from stranded drivers that were sooooo close to the next charging station and are stuck in a blizzard. I never wanna go through that like I did with that Chevy EV we were given at work.

GeorgiAg said:

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Here's what's going to happen:

• self driving vehicles will continue to get better, better than humans
• insurance rates will be based on how much the idiot human meat sack drives rather than the computer
• traffic and lower accident rates will have cities consider banning or charging a tax/toll for those who self-drive in urban areas.

There could be a self-driving gas car, but there isn't one yet. I think greater EV adoption will eventually lead to increased fuel prices, few gas stations, etc...

The ONLY benefit to gas is range. For the vast majority of folks that is not an issue. And as others have said, have both.

I have a Nissan Titan Turbodiesel with a Cummins engine I plan to keep forever so I can haul *****

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So more government regulations to tip the scales? Govern me harder daddy.

Y'all can have your urban utopia. I'll go live in the woods and yell at clouds.

I know you're rural, but sitting in traffic for hours because someone doesn't know how to drive and had a wreck sux.

BigRobSA said:

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No Spin Ag said:

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BigRobSA said:

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Teslag said:

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infinity ag said:

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What's the best EV car out there right now? Tesla? I love cool tech. I am not a fan of Tesla's looks though.
I am in the market for a car this year or next (no hurry)

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For US EV market it's pretty much Tesla and everyone else

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If I were to get an EV, it'd be a Tesla.

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For a guy who used to have a Trailblazer SUV with horsepower to spare, Tesla is definitely not what I expected.

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I didn't say "I'm going to get a Tesla". Just that, if I were looking at EVs, my choice would (logically) be a Tesla. They're far and away the industry leader. I'm not looking at EVs. I drive a beater-ass ImpHolla!! right now.

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Now THAT'S the vehicle that makes sense.

My wife has 2024 Ford Mach-e and we absolutely love it. I own a GMC Sierra AT4, but it's nowhere near as fun as the mach-e. The amount of savings we have saved on fuel alone for her and she is real estate agent is huge. We have a 240 plug in the garage and charge that way

What sucks worse is having a government whose wet dream is to control every aspect of people's lives. Remember when politicians wanted to make it where you couldn't buy groceries if you didn't get teslag's covid shot? What do you think happens to your grid connected vehicle when your overlords find out that you broke curfew in it during the next plandemic? Or crossed county lines? Hell it probably won't even let you do any of that. Will just take you home or to the nearest police station.

EV technology is great. If I had a 150 mile round trip commute I would probably get one because I can work a calculator. But your previous post about cities banning or taxing driving your own car should terrify you, but you're just happy you can post it while your car drives you to lunch.

coolerguy12 said:

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Quote:

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Your use case is so far in the minority that it doesn't move the needle on the market.

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I'm pissed about government subsidies and hamstringing ICE vehicles. You hand waived it away by saying I'm so far in the minority that I don't move the market. Not sure how else to read into your comment.

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What subsidies are EV buyers getting now?

You aren't in the market minority because EV's got a tax credit. You're in the minority because you want a heavy duty reliable high cost to manufacture vehicle for $25,000 dollars with a use case that is dwarfed by most car buyers. Simply put, you aren't worth the effort to vehicle manufacturers to cater to.

lol. "Now" is the key word there.

Do you deny that environmental regulations on ICE vehicles have pretty much made them dogs?

EGR is about the stupidest thing ever
Active cylinder management has ruined Honda and Chevy engines for years
Auto start stop is a feel good measure that does nothing
Toyota was the gold standard for a tried and true V8 and their turbo 6 is trash now.

That's my main concern with EVs as well. I can have extra gas in a gas can. If a storm knocks out a transmission line it's not going to affect my ability to drive. Any EV I purchase will be secondary to the gas vehicle I already have.

coolerguy12 said:

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lol. "Now" is the key word there.

Do you deny that environmental regulations on ICE vehicles have pretty much made them dogs?

EGR is about the stupidest thing ever
Active cylinder management has ruined Honda and Chevy engines for years
Auto start stop is a feel good measure that does nothing
Toyota was the gold standard for a tried and true V8 and their turbo 6 is trash now.

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All of that is true, though GM's 3.0 diesel and turbo 2.7 are pretty damn reliable and powerful. Regardless you aren't getting what you want with or without EGR for $25k in 2026. The juice in your budget isn't worth the squeeze.

coolerguy12 said:

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lol. "Now" is the key word there.

Do you deny that environmental regulations on ICE vehicles have pretty much made them dogs?

EGR is about the stupidest thing ever
Active cylinder management has ruined Honda and Chevy engines for years
Auto start stop is a feel good measure that does nothing
Toyota was the gold standard for a tried and true V8 and their turbo 6 is trash now.

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Not true. It *does* shorten engine life and wears down your starter!

A wave of leased electric vehicles is hitting the used market this year, which is likely to put further downward pressure on prices.

That scenario is unnecessary. Autonomous driving reduces serious accidents (Waymo reports a 90% reduction). That reduction will garner discounts from insurance, those discounts will be paid by individuals that didn't opt in for proof of autonomous miles. People will seek the discounts progressively shifting the cost of insurance on vehicles to those who continue to drive themselves. Eventually that becomes an unsustainable cost, because you're creating 95+% of the accidents (after impact of network effect of increased autonomous driving).

Over time the proliferation of autonomous vehicles owned by a network will make individual ownership of a car unsustainable for most. Why pay $1/mile for ownership of a car when you can pay $.25/mile by hailing a ride that arrives in <3 minutes and is on the average cleaner than your individually owned car because it is cleaned at least once a day.

hph6203 said:

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That scenario is unnecessary. Autonomous driving reduces serious accidents (Waymo reports a 90% reduction). That reduction will garner discounts from insurance, those discounts will be paid by individuals that didn't opt in for proof of autonomous miles. People will seek the discounts progressively shifting the cost of insurance on vehicles to those who continue to drive themselves. Eventually that becomes an unsustainable cost, because you're creating 95+% of the accidents (after impact of network effect of increased autonomous driving).

Over time the proliferation of autonomous vehicles owned by a network will make individual ownership of a car unsustainable for most. Why pay $1/mile for ownership of a car when you can pay $.25/mile by hailing a ride that arrives in <3 minutes and is on the average cleaner than your individually owned car because it is cleaned at least once a day.

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For some of us, rowing gears (etc.) is a big part of things. I don't have a manual right now, but I'm trying to work towards possibly getting another one.

I know you're probably right, but that just sucks. Taking all of the fun out of life..... :-(

It's a timing problem. 90% of the demand is going to happen between, 630-9 AM and 330-630 pm, and you need to have enough cars to match that demand. And then there's those of us that have to get to softball practice In 10 minutes and for heaven's sake I have told you 15 times to put your cleats on and we gotta get out the door right now and can't wait for the cab to get there.

Young people in urban areas may not have any practical need for a car but I wouldn't bet on the need for an individual car to make a huge drop

Medaggie said:

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People always clap back with these nonsensical statements. No one is tell you that EVs are for everyone. This thread was not titles, "Get an EV or your an idiot" It was a EV bashing thread and people are just telling you that it has a place in the car market and has good value.

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Incorrect. It was a thread noting that without subsidies, the market has spoken and new EV sales fell off a cliff.

GeorgiAg said:

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Here's what's going to happen:

• self driving vehicles will continue to get better, better than humans
• insurance rates will be based on how much the idiot human meat sack drives rather than the computer
• traffic and lower accident rates will have cities consider banning or charging a tax/toll for those who self-drive in urban areas.

There could be a self-driving gas car, but there isn't one yet. I think greater EV adoption will eventually lead to increased fuel prices, few gas stations, etc...

The ONLY benefit to gas is range. For the vast majority of folks that is not an issue. And as others have said, have both.

I have a Nissan Titan Turbodiesel with a Cummins engine I plan to keep forever so I can haul *****

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Range isn't the only advantage gas has. The entire fueling experience is an advantage. Even if two vehicles have identical range, waiting an hour to charge to 80% versus spending two minutes at a pump is a real difference in your day.

Most EVs are also disposable outside of warranty. Look at the values of 7-10yr old Teslas. You can buy a P85D for $8-10k today. If something major fails, the repair economics fall apart. An out of warranty battery pack failure on a Model S runs $15,000 to $20,000. That's enough to cover years of serious mechanical work on an ICE car, and unlike engines and transmissions, EV batteries have a finite lifespan by design. That clock is always running.

EVs are always drawing power just to stay alive. Let the battery drain completely and you're calling a tow truck, not a guy with a gas can. Come back from a week of travel to find your car dead in the airport lot and you're not driving home, you're getting an expensive tow to the dealer. Run an ICE car dead and a jump gets you moving in two minutes.

I'm not an EV hater, but ICE vehicles have plenty of advantages over them today. I'm sure that'll change over the next 5-10 years as infrastructure develops,

Also, there are self driving ICE cars. Ford, GM, BMW, Porsche, Audi and others offer autonomous or semi-autonomous ICE modes. There's nothing about an ICE vehicle that precludes self-driving.

coolerguy12 said:

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What sucks worse is having a government whose wet dream is to control every aspect of people's lives. Remember when politicians wanted to make it where you couldn't buy groceries if you didn't get teslag's covid shot? What do you think happens to your grid connected vehicle when your overlords find out that you broke curfew in it during the next plandemic? Or crossed county lines? Hell it probably won't even let you do any of that. Will just take you home or to the nearest police station.

EV technology is great. If I had a 150 mile round trip commute I would probably get one because I can work a calculator. But your previous post about cities banning or taxing driving your own car should terrify you, but you're just happy you can post it while your car drives you to lunch.

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It does terrify me. They just introduced a bill in Georgia where you would have to blow in a breathalyzer to start your care. WTF? Not that i'm FOR drunk driving but that's awful. I have no doubt the governments will push for all vehicles to have a kill switch.

Perhaps it will never get that far.

You have to realize you are an outlier. EV makes zero sense for you. I will always own a gas truck, preferably with no electronics. I have a Nissan Titan Diesel with a Cummins now. Great, but for a daily driver in any kinda city, it sucks. But I have 25+ acres, a 24 foot boat and two Sea Doos that need towing. Plus I have a big boy trailer to load my side by side or go pick up supplies.

I am surprised at how much I love the Tesla - self driving, just plug it in my garage esp. when cold or raining, all the technology on it. It's a cool machine. Also, right now the gas savings are nice.

Quote:

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Ford, GM, BMW, Porsche, Audi and others offer autonomous or semi-autonomous ICE modes.

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These "self driving" experiences are worlds behind Tesla. They aren't even close. And not a single one of them is autonomous.

Quote:

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unlike engines and transmissions, EV batteries have a finite lifespan by design. That clock is always running.

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Tesla batteries have a design life of 300 to 500k miles. That's roughly in line with the design life of an ICE engine, especially modern turbocharged ICE engines.

Quote:

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EVs are always drawing power just to stay alive. Let the battery drain completely and you're calling a tow truck, not a guy with a gas can. Come back from a week of travel to find your car dead in the airport lot and you're not driving home, you're getting an expensive tow to the dealer.

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A Tesla 3 or Y uses about 1% of its battery per day sitting idle.

Quote:

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The entire fueling experience is an advantage. Even if two vehicles have identical range, waiting an hour to charge to 80% versus spending two minutes at a pump is a real difference in your day.

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This is only relevant on a longer trip where such a "fueling experience" is necessary. For daily commuting needs, which is the bulk of driving for most US consumers, the "fueling experience" overwhelmingly better for the Tesla. You pull into garage. Plug in. Done.

txyaloo said:

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GeorgiAg said:

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Here's what's going to happen:

• self driving vehicles will continue to get better, better than humans
• insurance rates will be based on how much the idiot human meat sack drives rather than the computer
• traffic and lower accident rates will have cities consider banning or charging a tax/toll for those who self-drive in urban areas.

There could be a self-driving gas car, but there isn't one yet. I think greater EV adoption will eventually lead to increased fuel prices, few gas stations, etc...

The ONLY benefit to gas is range. For the vast majority of folks that is not an issue. And as others have said, have both.

I have a Nissan Titan Turbodiesel with a Cummins engine I plan to keep forever so I can haul *****

---

Range isn't the only advantage gas has. The entire fueling experience is an advantage. Even if two vehicles have identical range, waiting an hour to charge to 80% versus spending two minutes at a pump is a real difference in your day.

Most EVs are also disposable outside of warranty. Look at the values of 7-10yr old Teslas. You can buy a P85D for $8-10k today. If something major fails, the repair economics fall apart. An out of warranty battery pack failure on a Model S runs $15,000 to $20,000. That's enough to cover years of serious mechanical work on an ICE car, and unlike engines and transmissions, EV batteries have a finite lifespan by design. That clock is always running.

EVs are always drawing power just to stay alive. Let the battery drain completely and you're calling a tow truck, not a guy with a gas can. Come back from a week of travel to find your car dead in the airport lot and you're not driving home, you're getting an expensive tow to the dealer. Run an ICE car dead and a jump gets you moving in two minutes.

I'm not an EV hater, but ICE vehicles have plenty of advantages over them today. I'm sure that'll change over the next 5-10 years as infrastructure develops,

Also, there are self driving ICE cars. Ford, GM, BMW, Porsche, Audi and others offer autonomous or semi-autonomous ICE modes. There's nothing about an ICE vehicle that precludes self-driving.

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I charge at night - I wait zero minutes to charge 99% of the time. On trips, it is 20 minutes or less. I've left it on a Supercharger longer, but that was because I was eating or finishing my beer. I'm usually more stressed about getting out of a fast food place, etc. because it's already hit the charge i need or higher. And if you stay on a supercharger longer than needed, Tesla starts to "fine" you.

I am 55 years old. I've kept good care of all my vehicles but after about 7-10 years, some A-hole has run into me and totaled it or I'm ready for a change. The maintenance costs on ICE vehicles add up. Old ICE get to the point where that no longer makes sense financially.

"Always drawing power/Come back from a week of travel" - this is a made up issue. Does not happen. This is a massive battery and "vampire draw" or keeping it connected to the internet for info is a non-issue. You only run out of battery if you ignore the Tesla screaming at you. I went to my house on the Georgia coast - I had a 240w hookup there but Tesla did not know that. I skipped a Supercharger because I knew I'd be more than fine It warned me a half dozen times I could reach my destination, but not be able to reach another Supercharger on my RETURN trip. I dismissed it the warning about six times. No way you miss that. The only way you run out of charge is intentionally.

There is no vehicle EV or gas, I'd trust for Self driving other than Tesla. They might stay straight in a lane or even pass a car on the interstate. That's not self-driving like I'm talking about.

txyaloo said:

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GeorgiAg said:

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Here's what's going to happen:

• self driving vehicles will continue to get better, better than humans
• insurance rates will be based on how much the idiot human meat sack drives rather than the computer
• traffic and lower accident rates will have cities consider banning or charging a tax/toll for those who self-drive in urban areas.

There could be a self-driving gas car, but there isn't one yet. I think greater EV adoption will eventually lead to increased fuel prices, few gas stations, etc...

The ONLY benefit to gas is range. For the vast majority of folks that is not an issue. And as others have said, have both.

I have a Nissan Titan Turbodiesel with a Cummins engine I plan to keep forever so I can haul *****

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Range isn't the only advantage gas has. The entire fueling experience is an advantage. Even if two vehicles have identical range, waiting an hour to charge to 80% versus spending two minutes at a pump is a real difference in your day.

Most EVs are also disposable outside of warranty. Look at the values of 7-10yr old Teslas. You can buy a P85D for $8-10k today. If something major fails, the repair economics fall apart. An out of warranty battery pack failure on a Model S runs $15,000 to $20,000. That's enough to cover years of serious mechanical work on an ICE car, and unlike engines and transmissions, EV batteries have a finite lifespan by design. That clock is always running.

EVs are always drawing power just to stay alive. Let the battery drain completely and you're calling a tow truck, not a guy with a gas can. Come back from a week of travel to find your car dead in the airport lot and you're not driving home, you're getting an expensive tow to the dealer. Run an ICE car dead and a jump gets you moving in two minutes.

I'm not an EV hater, but ICE vehicles have plenty of advantages over them today. I'm sure that'll change over the next 5-10 years as infrastructure develops,

Also, there are self driving ICE cars. Ford, GM, BMW, Porsche, Audi and others offer autonomous or semi-autonomous ICE modes. There's nothing about an ICE vehicle that precludes self-driving.

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I've read some other horror stories of people going off the grid and out of cellphone range and not being able to start their Tesla. You're right, EVs are definitely not for every situation yet. Good old gasoline still is, for the most part.