Astros offseason thread

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iBrad
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In reply to Farmer1906 • 3:23p, 2/17/18
AG
Exactly. You're defending these guys like you're a fan of their teams. You posted Correa's home/away splits to try to downplay the Coors effect, which only proved how much playing in Colorado actually does boost numbers.

Enjoy your popcorn, though.
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astros4545
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3:35p, 2/17/18
AG
Arenado sucks

Stole his own first name from an Astro great
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TXAggie2011
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In reply to iBrad • 3:46p, 2/17/18
AG
iBrad said:
Dude, we're all Astros fans. There's really no reason to go out of your way to defend these other guys. And since you posted Correa's OPS, it's only fair to compare to Arenado's.

Home .958
Away .790

See the difference? He's a good player, but put him on another team and he's not in the top 10 conversation.


Arendado's OPS away from home last season was .886. It was .832 the year before and .835 before that. It's more than ample to be in the conversation considering everything else he does.

You put him on another team and he's still an elite bat that plays elite defense.

He didn't put up a 13.8 WAR over the last two seasons because he is "good."

(Correa put up a 12.3 WAR)
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Ag_07
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3:54p, 2/17/18
AG
And for the record I'm not mad or upset. I just think they are other players I'd put in the top 10 over Areando and Donaldson.

Hell I think Springer is better than Areando. Not that I'd put him in the top 10 but he's better than both of the two being debated.
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TXAggie2011
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3:57p, 2/17/18
AG
Now, Josh Donaldson...

.981 OPS on the road...
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TXAggie2011
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4:01p, 2/17/18
AG
Springer would have a better argument if he wasn't a medicore to poor defender.

And he needs to repeat his 2017 offensive performance.
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Ag_07
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In reply to TXAggie2011 • 4:06p, 2/17/18
AG
TXAggie2011 said:
Springer would have a better argument if he wasn't a medicore to poor defender.


Ok now that IS laughable
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Farmer1906
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In reply to TXAggie2011 • 4:10p, 2/17/18
AG
TXAggie2011 said:
Springer would have a better argument if he wasn't a medicore to poor defender.

And he needs to repeat his 2017 offensive performance.


What the damn hell?
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MAROON
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In reply to AstroAggie15 • 4:12p, 2/17/18
AG
AstroAggie15 said:
Giggidy


No one on the planet had as good a year as Justin Verlander
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TXAggie2011
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In reply to Ag_07 • 4:15p, 2/17/18
AG
Ag_07 said:
TXAggie2011 said:
Springer would have a better argument if he wasn't a medicore to poor defender.


Ok now that IS laughable


Negative dWAR, negative Rdrs, negative UZR, etc.

I'll take back poor but...
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Mathguy64
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In reply to TXAggie2011 • 6:18p, 2/17/18
AG
TXAggie2011 said:
Ag_07 said:
TXAggie2011 said:
Springer would have a better argument if he wasn't a medicore to poor defender.


Ok now that IS laughable


Negative dWAR, negative Rdrs, negative UZR, etc.

I'll take back poor but...


Stay off the computer and watch him play CF or RF. Seriously. I pay attention to sabermetric stats too, but defensive stats are just not worth a damn.
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astros4545
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In reply to TXAggie2011 • 6:23p, 2/17/18
AG
TXAggie2011 said:
Springer would have a better argument if he wasn't a medicore to poor defender.

And he needs to repeat his 2017 offensive performance.


HFS
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iBrad
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In reply to TXAggie2011 • 7:23p, 2/17/18
AG
TXAggie2011 said:
iBrad said:
Dude, we're all Astros fans. There's really no reason to go out of your way to defend these other guys. And since you posted Correa's OPS, it's only fair to compare to Arenado's.

Home .958
Away .790

See the difference? He's a good player, but put him on another team and he's not in the top 10 conversation.


Arendado's OPS away from home last season was .886. It was .832 the year before and .835 before that. It's more than ample to be in the conversation considering everything else he does.

You put him on another team and he's still an elite bat that plays elite defense.

He didn't put up a 13.8 WAR over the last two seasons because he is "good."

(Correa put up a 12.3 WAR)

Well if we're just looking at last year, Correa's OPS away from MMP was .905. An .832-.886 OPS will get you in conversations, but it shouldn't get you in conversations of being a top-10 player in MLB.

Regardless of what stat you want to use for Arenado (WAR, OPS, etc.), they're all inflated from playing in Coors Field. He's a good player. Just not a top 10 player.
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AustinCountyAg
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In reply to TXAggie2011 • 7:53p, 2/17/18
TXAggie2011 said:
Springer would have a better argument if he wasn't a medicore to poor defender.

And he needs to repeat his 2017 offensive performance.


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corleoneAg99
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8:12p, 2/17/18
AG
Home road split for OPS for Correa in 17 doesn't really tell the story IMO. After a two minute glance he played more games on the road and his batted ball data is pretty equal(as in his hard hit rate was the same and he's an exit velo stud). One thing different on the road is he k'd more and had a higher infield fly %; too aggressive to make up for park factor maybe?

Also fun? Kid had a better road OPS in 16 mainly due to home split against L that led to a 608 OPS.

I'd like a few more years of info on Correa to tell more about why and how he's so good. However so far his home road splits alone don't tell me much.
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irish pete ag06
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 8:42p, 2/17/18
AG
mathguy86 said:
TXAggie2011 said:
Ag_07 said:
TXAggie2011 said:
Springer would have a better argument if he wasn't a medicore to poor defender.


Ok now that IS laughable


Negative dWAR, negative Rdrs, negative UZR, etc.

I'll take back poor but...


Stay off the computer and watch him play CF or RF. Seriously. I pay attention to sabermetric stats too, but defensive stats are just not worth a damn.
I don't trust sabermetric defensive stats yet. Especially with a team that shifts as much as the Astros.

If FieldFx is ever made public, we will actually have some legit numbers.
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TXAggie2011
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 8:54p, 2/17/18
AG
mathguy86 said:
TXAggie2011 said:
Ag_07 said:
TXAggie2011 said:
Springer would have a better argument if he wasn't a medicore to poor defender.


Ok now that IS laughable


Negative dWAR, negative Rdrs, negative UZR, etc.

I'll take back poor but...


Stay off the computer and watch him play CF or RF. Seriously. I pay attention to sabermetric stats too, but defensive stats are just not worth a damn.


Yeah, I get it. He looks cool out there like Derek Jeter did at shortstop.
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TXAggie2011
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In reply to iBrad • 9:11p, 2/17/18
AG
Arenado had a higher road slugging percentage than Correa did. If he was depending on Coors to out-do Correa, I'd very much expect the opposite.

I think they're both in the conversation, by the way.
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corleoneAg99
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9:21p, 2/17/18
AG
Yeah but a 288 babip on the road which is pretty normal for him looking back several years.

Where Arenado gets a lot of credit as well is on defense...he is considered top 2 or 3 at position. Dwar backs that up fwiw.
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TXAggie2011
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9:24p, 2/17/18
AG
Sub 300 OBP? Arenado had a .355 road OBP last year and is career.317?

And yes, he's an elite defender. Correa is good, he's not elite.
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corleoneAg99
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9:26p, 2/17/18
AG
I was quoting just 17.
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TXAggie2011
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9:28p, 2/17/18
AG
I was saying his OBP was .355 last year on the road.
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corleoneAg99
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9:30p, 2/17/18
AG
You're right. I was looking at wrong column.
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Mathguy64
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In reply to TXAggie2011 • 9:37p, 2/17/18
AG
TXAggie2011 said:
mathguy86 said:
TXAggie2011 said:
Ag_07 said:
TXAggie2011 said:
Springer would have a better argument if he wasn't a medicore to poor defender.


Ok now that IS laughable


Negative dWAR, negative Rdrs, negative UZR, etc.

I'll take back poor but...


Stay off the computer and watch him play CF or RF. Seriously. I pay attention to sabermetric stats too, but defensive stats are just not worth a damn.


Yeah, I get it. He looks cool out there like Derek Jeter did at shortstop.


The number 2 OF in UZR is Yasiel Puig. Which is of course where he should be. Why? Because Yasiel Puig is known for one thing in the outfield and that's throwing guys out. And UZR takes that into account a lot.
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TXAggie2011
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9:43p, 2/17/18
AG
And here I was going to compliment Springer's arm and those 12 assists in 2016 and 6 in just half a season in 2014.
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TXAggie2011
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9:46p, 2/17/18
AG
Wait, timeout. Puig had 4 assists last year in 1200 innings. Springer had 5 total, 3 in less than 500 innings in right field.

The year prior, Springer had 12 compared to 6 for Puig.

And the argument is UZR is skewed for Puig but maybe not Springer?

(Again, I actually think Springer has done good things with his arm.)
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Mathguy64
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9:57p, 2/17/18
AG
No. The argument is UZR is flawed. Badly. And you just gave a convincing argument why.
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TXAggie2011
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9:58p, 2/17/18
AG
It doesn't take assists into account enough?
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Mathguy64
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10:01p, 2/17/18
AG
It thinks Puig is the second best OF. That's a pretty big flaw.
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Ag_07
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In reply to TXAggie2011 • 10:12p, 2/17/18
AG
Do yourself a favor and just stop. You're making yourself look like an ass.
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TXAggie2011
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In reply to Mathguy64 • 10:16p, 2/17/18
AG
mathguy86 said:
It thinks Puig is the second best OF. That's a pretty big flaw.


I agree Puig isn't the 2nd best defender.

UZR is better over multiple years because it occasionally gives you that result. Multi year is that's less favorable to Puig. But Springer is still average.

Both Puig and Springer are great overall players, imo. Springer is better than Puig. Arenado is better than both.
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iBrad
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In reply to TXAggie2011 • 12:39a, 2/18/18
AG
TXAggie2011 said:
Arenado had a higher road slugging percentage than Correa did. If he was depending on Coors to out-do Correa, I'd very much expect the opposite.

I think they're both in the conversation, by the way.

Now you're just cherry picking stats in a losing argument. Arenado's road stats suggest that he'd never be a .900 OPS guy if not for Coors field. No way he's even in the conversation if he played for another team. He'd likely be in the 20s...maybe the teens because of his defense.

Go look at the full list and you'll find Charlie Blackmon at 16...another overrated Rocky. Check out his splits and tell me there's not a Coors effect.
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TXAggie2011
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1:22a, 2/18/18
AG
Arenado's defense is certainly part of his ranking, indeed. He's played damn near Hall of Fame defense up to this point in his career.


Looking at slugging isn't cherry picking, especially when the thrust of the Coors Field argument is that it helps guys successfully mash the ball.

Last year was Correa's first time with a road OPS above .828. He didn't slug better than Arendado did on the road. He had a higher road OPS mostly because of extra walks and an occasional extra single.

That's all in the good for Correa, walks and singles matter. But we're talking about a 19 point difference and it's not because Arenado can't hit home runs and doubles away from Coors Field.


And no one said you don't get a boost from Coors Field and I'm sure Charlie Blackmon's splits are indeed crazy if they're similar to the earlier in his career.
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AustinCountyAg
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7:01a, 2/18/18
Can we all just STFU now comparing other slaps to our World Series Champion players? Take that **** to the top 100 players thread.
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Mathguy64
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7:12a, 2/18/18
AG
Time to get back to important stuff. Like Kate's new uniform design.

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