so why are there gas shortages?

cone said:

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so why are there gas shortages?

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Are you seriously asking why Russia is selling less gas to Europe?

twk said:

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HumpitPuryear said:

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twk said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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So a sanctioned nation is going to blow up their own pipes that they sell an abundance of LNG for a substantial part of income to get out of a contract they said they are willing to fulfill? It's Germany that was creating the reduced supply because of sanctions we are making.

There are far less complex ways to dmg the pipe than what took place. They could have driven a truck into where it's loaded or some piece of infrastructure like that. But instead they plan a complex underwater demo mission. Have completely escaped detection in the relatively shallow water despite us having navy ships in the area and a P8 right overhead?

Makes sense.

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They have never sold one MCF of gas through Nordstream 2. They haven't sold any gas (or very little) through Nordstream 1 in recent months. They have plenty of capacity in other pipelines to handle what they are selling right now, and what they are likely to sell in the future. Putin was willing to sacrifice these lines in an attempt to ratchet up the pressure. Having played the embargo card, he's all in. If he doesn't break the Europeans this winter, he's toast.

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But this makes it harder for Europe to say uncle not easier. There were already protests in Germany with people demanding that Germany accept gas on NS. That's exactly the kind of pressure that would benefit Putin. Now that pressure is off because it just became impossible. Germany is forced further into a corner with fewer options. That does not benefit Putin.

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I don't know how many times I have to say it, but there are a number of other pipelines from Russian to Europe. They've got the capacity to handle whatever gas Russia wants to sell to Europe. The Europeans have been acquiring every bit of gas that they can from other sources, so even if they knuckled under today, those other pipelines could handle whatever the Europeans decided to buy. The Nordstream lines, in particularly the second line, were about replacing those other lines (and cutting off Ukraine and Poland from royalty payments), not about increasing capacity.

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It still doesn't make any sense. Putin blew up the wrong pipelines then. Why blow up pipelines you have end-to-end control over instead of the ones that cross enemy territory?

Edit to add that blowing up the Ukraine pipeline would be easier and it would be more plausible that Ukraine did it.

why are you being so combative?

i'm just trying to square this:

Quote:

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not about increasing capacity

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with the shortages

i'm actually trying to learn and understand and i'm not a lawyer so arguing doesn't get me all that fired up

so far, i am just not seeing a good motive for russia to have done this.

then again, with western countries actively working against their own best interests in every single aspect of policy, all media sources acting in concert with the scum running those agendas, and russia ****ing up the invasion so badly, attempting to assess motives is impossible in today's world.

cone said:

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why are you being so combative?

i'm just trying to square this:

Quote:

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not about increasing capacity

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with the shortages

i'm actually trying to learn and understand and i'm not a lawyer so arguing doesn't get me all that fired up

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If you'll go back and read some of the stuff written about Nordstream 2 during the Trump administration, you'll see that one of our objections was that the Russians were trying to cut off Ukraine and Poland from the revenue they receive from these pipelines, and to also put Russian in a position to threaten those countries with embargo without jeopardizing their other European contracts. Putin has been setting things up so that he could divide and conquer for a long time.

HumpitPuryear said:

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twk said:

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HumpitPuryear said:

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twk said:

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Yukon Cornelius said:

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So a sanctioned nation is going to blow up their own pipes that they sell an abundance of LNG for a substantial part of income to get out of a contract they said they are willing to fulfill? It's Germany that was creating the reduced supply because of sanctions we are making.

There are far less complex ways to dmg the pipe than what took place. They could have driven a truck into where it's loaded or some piece of infrastructure like that. But instead they plan a complex underwater demo mission. Have completely escaped detection in the relatively shallow water despite us having navy ships in the area and a P8 right overhead?

Makes sense.

---

They have never sold one MCF of gas through Nordstream 2. They haven't sold any gas (or very little) through Nordstream 1 in recent months. They have plenty of capacity in other pipelines to handle what they are selling right now, and what they are likely to sell in the future. Putin was willing to sacrifice these lines in an attempt to ratchet up the pressure. Having played the embargo card, he's all in. If he doesn't break the Europeans this winter, he's toast.

---

But this makes it harder for Europe to say uncle not easier. There were already protests in Germany with people demanding that Germany accept gas on NS. That's exactly the kind of pressure that would benefit Putin. Now that pressure is off because it just became impossible. Germany is forced further into a corner with fewer options. That does not benefit Putin.

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I don't know how many times I have to say it, but there are a number of other pipelines from Russian to Europe. They've got the capacity to handle whatever gas Russia wants to sell to Europe. The Europeans have been acquiring every bit of gas that they can from other sources, so even if they knuckled under today, those other pipelines could handle whatever the Europeans decided to buy. The Nordstream lines, in particularly the second line, were about replacing those other lines (and cutting off Ukraine and Poland from royalty payments), not about increasing capacity.

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It still doesn't make any sense. Putin blew up the wrong pipelines then. Why blow up pipelines you have end-to-end control over instead of the ones that cross enemy territory?

Edit to add that blowing up the Ukraine pipeline would be easier and it would be more plausible that Ukraine did it.

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Putin doesn't want to cut off all of Europe. Particularly Hungary and to a lesser extent the Czechs. He's hoping to drive a wedge between the more pro-Ukraine countries and the others. He's trying to walk a fine line.

Still pretending your boy Vlad isn't getting his ass kicked Ukraine

cause the ****** you voted for is a "climate change" adherent.

hey this has been a fun thread see you guys in another couple of years

Two questions: I know the immediate news reports speculated that it was an attack, but are we sure this wasn't just some kind of failure in the structure of the pipeline?

Also, a few people on this thread who know a lot more about this than I do have implied this is an easy fix anyways and it could be back up and running in a couple weeks. Is that not correct?

Teslag said:

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Still pretending your boy Vlad isn't getting his ass kicked Ukraine

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Care to reveal Ukrainian causality numbers?

Right now, one ship of LNG from the US to EUR is clearing almost $200,000,000 profit. Pretty wild number. I don't know who did what related to this, but American LNG companies are making it rain.

The Debt said:

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Teslag said:

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Still pretending your boy Vlad isn't getting his ass kicked Ukraine

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Care to reveal Ukrainian causality numbers?

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Who gives a ****. Russia is reeling and American weapons are decimating Putins laughable army to the point he's had to mobilize a bunch of old men with rusty AK's. This time next year the Ukes will be in Crimea as they continue shove HIMAR rockets right up Vlad's backside

It's 2022. Superior weapons are more important than number of men in uniform.

Teslag said:

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Still pretending your boy Vlad isn't getting his ass kicked Ukraine

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If someone doesn't think the United States can afford to send tens of billions of dollars across the globe to fight another countries' battles, they are "pro-Putin" or he's "my boy Vlad".Really? What about what ordinary Americans need, when we need it? What exactly is America's national interest in helping Ukraine retake more territory from the Russians? Maybe it makes supporters of sending billions of dollars at time we can least afford "anti-Americans".

RWWilson said:

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Teslag said:

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Still pretending your boy Vlad isn't getting his ass kicked Ukraine

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If someone doesn't think the United States can afford to send tens of billions of dollars across the globe to fight another countries' battles, they are "pro-Putin" or he's "my boy Vlad".Really? What about what ordinary Americans need, when we need it? What exactly is America's national interest in helping Ukraine retake more territory from the Russians? Maybe it makes supporters of sending billions of dollars at time we can least afford "anti-Americans".

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This. Imagine spending that money on American infrastructure instead all these other countries we fund. It's absolutely insane. Americans are the biggest losers in the history of the world. We finance everyone else meanwhile we go into massive debt. If Russia is so bad for Europe why isn't every Europe nation on the front line? Let Europe defend Europe. I'm sick and tired of American blood and treasure being spent and spilled overseas.

Teslag said:

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The Debt said:

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Teslag said:

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Still pretending your boy Vlad isn't getting his ass kicked Ukraine

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Care to reveal Ukrainian causality numbers?

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Who gives a ****. Russia is reeling and American weapons are decimating Putins laughable army to the point he's had to mobilize a bunch of old men with rusty AK's. This time next year the Ukes will be in Crimea as they continue shove HIMAR rockets right up Vlad's backside

It's 2022. Superior weapons are more important than number of men in uniform.

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Who gives a shtt, eh? Fighting to the very last Ukrainian is your online victory.

This was back in early June speaking of recent weeks (May)....Ukrainians were losing twenty thousand per month. 20,000 per month. We have gone four more months since then. The very fact that this number is hidden should tell you that you are being lied to.

We knew to the last hangnail how many US soldiers were injured in Iraq. But our media refuses to assess our allies losses...hmm...you dont think thats the least bit suspicious? You dont care because you and the progressive media are the same, reality shouldnt get in the way of a good story, especially one that our masters want to tell.

Ukrainian losses aren't self inflicted like Russian.

I don't care about Ukraine. I care about embarrassing Vlad/Russia and it's happening. Dude is just getting depantsed on the world stage and I love it.

Odd take.

Why? They are an adversary and a thug dictator. It's good for us and the world. If only it could happen to China next.

"European Union says it will retaliate against attacks on energy networks"

Link

Teslag said:

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Why? They are an adversary and a thug dictator. It's good for us and the world. If only it could happen to China next.

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Add progressives to the list and I will get on board.

The Debt said:

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Teslag said:

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Still pretending your boy Vlad isn't getting his ass kicked Ukraine

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Care to reveal Ukrainian causality numbers?

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to compare with Russian casualties?

Manhattan said:

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Ukrainian losses aren't self inflicted like Russian.

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So who is inflicting Ukrainian losses?

Rub the neurons together.

Teslag said:

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Why? They are an adversary and a thug dictator. It's good for us and the world. If only it could happen to China next.

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Do you not see thugs in DC? FFS the "first son" sits on the board of a ukrainian energy company so they have access to the West Wing.

The Biden family thanks you for the $upport.

The Debt said:

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Manhattan said:

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Ukrainian losses aren't self inflicted like Russian.

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So who is inflicting Ukrainian losses?

Rub the neurons together.

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Doesn't look like anyone is now. At this point it's basically OU-A&M 77-0 and Putin is going full Johnny Jolly over some mobilized grandfathers.

Teslag said:

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The Debt said:

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Manhattan said:

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Ukrainian losses aren't self inflicted like Russian.

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So who is inflicting Ukrainian losses?

Rub the neurons together.

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Doesn't look like anyone is now. At this point it's basically OU-A&M 77-0 and Putin is going full Johnny Jolly over some mobilized grandfathers.

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It's cute you think Russia is losing this conflict.

Ukraine's manpower has been decimated. They lost the EEZs with all the energy discovered. They lost the Avozstal steel plant...and their southern command center... they lost the majority Russian provinces. Any ground Ukr has "won" it was ceded. The largest "victory" the counter offense has won, was Izyum where Russian forces were 5 times smaller than anticipated because Russia had already withdrawn and drew UKR into a costly slaughter.

They retook Izyum, grats, but at heavy cost. Pyrrhic victory. Google it.

We are half a year in and people still don't understand maneuver warfare.

twk said:

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cone said:

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the end result of this is Germans shivering through the winter with no real recourse

so who benefits from that?

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Two pipeline that were providing zero gas to Europe over the last month being eliminated doesn't really change things in the short term. The Russians have plenty of capacity in their other lines to handle the gas they are sending to Europe now, and what they are likely to send in the future.

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If gas wasn't being transmitted in these lines, then why are we seeing metric tons of gas bubbling to the surface? Where was the gas in the lines headed?

I didn't say Russia was losing. I said they were getting their asses absolutely handed to them. And they are.

Russia has no answer for superior weaponry and we are now sending it in spades.