TresPuertas said:

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this is kind of my point, I run around a lot of conservative. People, talk to them about politics all the time, read about every conservative post on the Internet, listen to every conservative show I can, and not once, not a single damn time, have I heard anybody say they are pro Putin or pro Russia. I don't even think I've seen it on here.

It's either a media talking point or a preconceived notion that all liberals have that if you're against Ukraine, you're pro Russia, which just isn't the case for any us.

This is a complex matter and within those complexities, there's room to understand that you can hate both, which I do

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I'm curious. Why do you hate Ukraine. That's the part I don't get.

PA24 said:

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Then why are we so worried with Russia if they are so weak?


Let Ukraine keep fighting and winning, they don't need our help.

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Looks like thats where we are headed. I guess we will find out.

Rossticus said:

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Yep. FDR was no hero. If his hand hadn't been forced then half the world (at least) would be speaking German and Jews would only exist in history books. But then again, most of America didn't want get involved, and a lot of Americans disagreed with providing aid of any kind.

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So what? Why should we? EMEA has been fighting since the beginning of time. We should stay out of it.

The Fall Guy said:

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TresPuertas said:

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The Fall Guy said:

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Teslag said:

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TresPuertas said:

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I have a genuine question for Teslag and the other defenders of Zelenskyy here. (staff, this is for discussion and not an attack i swear)

what makes you guys draw the conclusion that if someone like me is against Zelenskyy and the continued funding of the Ukraine fiasco the. we are pro Russian.

I've seen it several times on here from several posters claim that "maga" is "pro Putin/Russia" but i'd like to know the reasoning behind that

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You aren't pro Russia if you're simply against our tax dollars being sent to Ukraine.

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My simple hatred of Russia is that I spent all of my younger years in the Cold War fearing Russia. Its very odd that some are supporting Russia here. Especially Consevatives. I get Zelensky is a grifter because I see it. I also see Trump making Russia the victim out of this conflict which is Horsecrap. Russia starred the war. Russia will never be defeated also. Thats common sense.

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i've read every post on this thread and have not seen a single pro-russia or pro putin post from a trump supporter. if i'm wrong please let me know. that's what im trying to to get at here. what am i missing?

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No one has to say they support Russia to know that they do. It's how sentences are written. This feels like when Trump met with KIM. All talk and nothing came out of it. If Trump believes anything KIM or Putin says it better be with a grain of salt.

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so you're saying that it's not said but in the subtext of how it's said? an amazing talent that must be. knowing something about someone without them even being aware.

just to be clear though, I'll make it easy for you about me. no freudian analysis needed.


i think Zelenskyy is criminal assbag, and we are using him and Ukraine to launder billions of dollars of stolen money from the american taxpayer. he can rot in hell for all i care and so can every American politician who is complicit in this grift.

also.

**** RUSSIA AND **** PUTIN.

they can all meet in hell for all i care

Pacifico said:

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Rossticus said:

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Yep. FDR was no hero. If his hand hadn't been forced then half the world (at least) would be speaking German and Jews would only exist in history books. But then again, most of America didn't want get involved, and a lot of Americans disagreed with providing aid of any kind.

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So what? Why should we? EMEA has been fighting since the beginning. We should stay out of it.

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Did I say anything at all about Ukraine or our involvement? I was responding to a historical statement about FDR without any broader implication. Chill.

RafterAg223 said:

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Old McDonald said:

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backintexas2013 said:

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Old McDonald said:

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the way trump has handled ukraine so far is roosevelt urging churchill to sue hitler for peace on any terms, and demanding england's coal reserves in return. shameful.

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You have no plan other than Trump bad give Ukraine money. That's shameful

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and trump has no plan other than give putin what he wants and hope he doesn't do it again. unamerican and cowardly.

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The only reason this is going on is because your walking vegetable became president.

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we can dispense with this talking point now. considering how ardently trump and his admin have allied themselves with putin throughout this conflict, had he been president in 2022 the russian flag would be flying over kiev today.

RafterAg223 said:

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rootube said:

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TresPuertas said:

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this is kind of my point, I run around a lot of conservative. People, talk to them about politics all the time, read about every conservative post on the Internet, listen to every conservative show I can, and not once, not a single damn time, have I heard anybody say they are pro Putin or pro Russia. I don't even think I've seen it on here.

It's either a media talking point or a preconceived notion that all liberals have that if you're against Ukraine, you're pro Russia, which just isn't the case for any us.

This is a complex matter and within those complexities, there's room to understand that you can hate both, which I do

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I'm curious. Why do you hate Ukraine. That's the part I don't get.

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Who here has said they hate Ukraine? I believe Zellenskyy is a con man, but I don't hate Ukraine. We don't need to send another red cent of taxpayer money over there. We have our own problems to deal with here. I believe a lot of people, Zellenskyy included, are getting rich off this conflict. I'm not ok with that.

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I was replying to the other poster that literally said he hates both Ukraine and Russia.

I think the US saying we don't want to pay to support Ukraine anymore is a completely legitimate argument. I don't agree but I understand. But what I'm seeing right now are people attacking Ukraine. A country that was invaded unprovoked by its far more powerful neighbor. Is Zelenskyy going around begging for aid? Of course he is. That country is literally fighting for its existence.

There is zero evidence Zelenskyy is stealing. The vast majority of our aid is direct military aide which kind of has only one purpose for Ukraine.

TresPuertas said:

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this is kind of my point, I run around a lot of conservative. People, talk to them about politics all the time, read about every conservative post on the Internet, listen to every conservative show I can, and not once, not a single damn time, have I heard anybody say they are pro Putin or pro Russia. I don't even think I've seen it on here.

It's either a media talking point or a preconceived notion that all liberals have that if you're against Ukraine, you're pro Russia, which just isn't the case for any us.

This is a complex matter and within those complexities, there's room to understand that you can hate both, which I do

---

Oh there has certainly been a few for sure.

But also yes, this whole thing has devolved into a massive MSM war. But it is also true that many conservatives fell into the same dystopian trap of fake news that they decried against for so long and they never once stopped to think critically or look further because it fit their worldview all of a sudden. The Right lies just as much as the Left did IMO. Ukraine being a case in point. Yes, some of the rhetoric is true, however, MUCH of it is misconstrued, misinterpreted purposely, or just straight lies. At some levels, it is climate change level of deception. I know, because I used to disprove much of it long ago on this board. Often using the very same sources someone would post to lie about Ukraine or some aspect about it. I gave up though when no one was interested in truth. Just the narrative. And since a large portion of it originates with Russia, yes evil Russia Russia Russia!, that is why it is easy for some to label the talking points as Pro Russian.

This clip was posted several times in the past by conservatives as a "warning" that I am aware of. I guess the warning need no longer apply these days though... Bitter irony to me. Russia is the undisputed master of infiltration and mass subversion and have been for generations. Oh, I guess they stopped completely though in the middle of their worst war and somehow splitting their enemy's greatest benefactor and individual contributor was pure coincidence. (Musk) Though Biden and CO did not help of course ( I have my own beef there, trust me)... But their own grift and nonsense was not entirely on Ukraine and it's fight for survival. Ukraine got screwed over by Biden 100x more than Biden screwed us.

backintexas2013 said:

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Ukraine isn't a position of strength. We don't have to have a deal. They do. They are the short stack at the table and they don't realize it.

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Trump wants 1/2 trillion in minerals. And he didn't get it. I think that is the bottom line. Let's see how it plays out.

rootube said:

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RafterAg223 said:

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rootube said:

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TresPuertas said:

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this is kind of my point, I run around a lot of conservative. People, talk to them about politics all the time, read about every conservative post on the Internet, listen to every conservative show I can, and not once, not a single damn time, have I heard anybody say they are pro Putin or pro Russia. I don't even think I've seen it on here.

It's either a media talking point or a preconceived notion that all liberals have that if you're against Ukraine, you're pro Russia, which just isn't the case for any us.

This is a complex matter and within those complexities, there's room to understand that you can hate both, which I do

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I'm curious. Why do you hate Ukraine. That's the part I don't get.

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Who here has said they hate Ukraine? I believe Zellenskyy is a con man, but I don't hate Ukraine. We don't need to send another red cent of taxpayer money over there. We have our own problems to deal with here. I believe a lot of people, Zellenskyy included, are getting rich off this conflict. I'm not ok with that.

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I was replying to the other poster that literally said he hates both Ukraine and Russia.

I think the US saying we don't want to pay to support Ukraine anymore is a completely legitimate argument. I don't agree but I understand. But what I'm seeing right now are people attacking Ukraine. A country that was invaded unprovoked by its far more powerful neighbor. Is Zelenskyy going around begging for aid? Of course he is. That country is literally fighting for its existence.

There is zero evidence Zelenskyy is stealing. The vast majority of our aid is direct military aide which kind of has only one purpose for Ukraine.

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Putin is, and has always been, a KGB thug.
The nation of Ukraine isn't long for this world.

TresPuertas said:

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ukraine is a corrupt hellhole and has been known as the laundromat for dirty american money for a very long time.

beyond that, a simple understanding of post world war II eastern bloc politics shows that these are all countries cut from the same piece of cloth of communism and while one may be better than the other that doesn't mean it's good. That's the thing i think a lot of people on your side don't understand:

"if one is bad then the other may be good". that's dangerously incorrect and doesn't take into consideration the complexities of politics

think of it this way, if the Chinese and Russian governments were to go to war against each other today who would you side with?

If you said, nobody, then welcome to the club.


The same applies here. these are both very corrupt, very cruel countries and i feel for the citizens on each side. that's the humanity in me and christian in me and ill never lose that.

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I think you are the one who doesn't understand post WWII eastern block politics. Look at the prosperity of the former eastern block countries who integrated into the west and look at the eastern block countries still under the control of Russia. Ukraine threw out the puppet Russian leader and replaced him with a democratically elected president who Russian agents promptly attempted to murder by poisoning him. They are t perfect but they don't want to be Putin's meat wave army for his next conquest.

I looked it up. Here's a little example for you. Polands GDP is $820B and it's one of the fastest growing economies in Europe. Belarus has had the same Russian installed dictator for the last 30 years and has a flat GDP of $71B.

the myth that trump would have magically prevented the war is farcical. his capitulation to putin and antagonism toward ukraine has done more to embolden russian aggression in the past thirty days than any president in decades. he sees the putins of the world as examples to emulate, not as enemies to thwart.

Casual Cynic said:

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The reality is that Ukraine is in a war it can't win. Trump recognizes that Ukraine can't win and wants to negotiate a peace on terms that Russia will actually accept. For this, Trump gets accused of being a Russia undercover agent.
The war will most likely end in Ukraine losing considerable territory, in the best case scenario. And with total defeat for Ukraine in the worst. I think Zelenskyy wants to hold out for some fantasy of Russia retreating from Ukrainian land.
If I were Trump I would cut all aid and see how Ukraine does. How much does the situation have to further deteriorate for Zelenskyy to finally realize he can't win?

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There's zero chance Russia can take all of Ukraine. They couldn't even do that to Afghanistan when they were a true superpower. If we cut aid now they might lose a little more territory in the east. But drones and asymmetric warfare have changed dynamics in that conflict.

And we'd be wise to note that ourselves in future wars.

agmeister said:

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backintexas2013 said:

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Ukraine isn't a position of strength. We don't have to have a deal. They do. They are the short stack at the table and they don't realize it.

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Trump wants 1/2 trillion in minerals. And he didn't get it. I think that is the bottom line. Let's see how it plays out.

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Ukraine owes us, bigtime. They don't have the cash to pay us back. However, they have rare earth minerals under their feet. They want our protection. They want to sell those rare earth minerals under their feet to the highest bidder and still demand our protection. They sell them to someone else, and we will not see the RTI. They are major grifters as well. Some of the arms we gave them ended up Mexican Cartel hands. WTF?

That **** does not fly.

We are willing to continue to protect you, and manage a peace that will save your son's, and all we want is some, maybe most of, what is under your feet and you'll keep most of your country from Russia. And you get high and mighty an mouthy while at it. I am hearing the reason they did the open discussion in front of reporters today was to share how Zelensky is so demanding and entitled behind the scenes. If so, it was eye opening and we all needed to see it.

Putin is a ruthless, evil POS. Zelensky is a pro grifter, who has a country that used to be part of Russia, and is profiting off of the war. We want the rare earth minerals under Z's feet, and will help him keep most of his country.

It's not hard Z.

Casual Cynic said:

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The reality is that Ukraine is in a war it can't win. Trump recognizes that Ukraine can't win and wants to negotiate a peace on terms that Russia will actually accept. For this, Trump gets accused of being a Russia undercover agent.
The war will most likely end in Ukraine losing considerable territory, in the best case scenario. And with total defeat for Ukraine in the worst. I think Zelenskyy wants to hold out for some fantasy of Russia retreating from Ukrainian land.
If I were Trump I would cut all aid and see how Ukraine does. How much does the situation have to further deteriorate for Zelenskyy to finally realize he can't win?

---

Can you imagine how that would sound to a Ukrainian who was told by all the western experts who said they couldn't withstand the original invasion?

TresPuertas said:

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ukraine is a corrupt hellhole and has been known as the laundromat for dirty american money for a very long time.

beyond that, a simple understanding of post world war II eastern bloc politics shows that these are all countries cut from the same piece of cloth of communism and while one may be better than the other that doesn't mean it's good. That's the thing i think a lot of people on your side don't understand:

"if one is bad then the other may be good". that's dangerously incorrect and doesn't take into consideration the complexities of politics

think of it this way, if the Chinese and Russian governments were to go to war against each other today who would you side with?

If you said, nobody, then welcome to the club.


The same applies here. these are both very corrupt, very cruel countries and i feel for the citizens on each side. that's the humanity in me and christian in me and ill never lose that.

---

Ukraine has been westernizing for years now and all the corruption charges and exposure is actually a good thing as they try to root out the Soviet emplaced functionaries and systems. They are corrupt and nowhere close to perfect but it is disingenuous to think they have not been making progress. And their corruption levels can never compete with our own. A significant chunk of what we have been led to believe by right stream media of "their" corruption right now, is actually "OUR" corruption btw.

It doesn't excuse it and safeguards should always be in place to catch what you can, but this is the EXACT type of rightist rhetoric I was referring too earlier. Dig in a little and it falls apart pretty quickly. Even the super viral super cars the Zelensky was buying in Europe just months into the war? Do you remember that? Some poster went off on that and when I used THEIR source to prove that the receipts were in fact fake (and in fact turned out to originate from a RU based telegram first) they fled the thread real quick. Only to return the next day, harping the same lie on a different thread.

Yeah, I was done with trying to debate people after that. Ukraine is the right's political hammer they used starting during the presidential campaign. Synonymous with the left's use of climate change IMO.

Heineken-Ashi said:

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Old McDonald said:

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RafterAg223 said:

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Old McDonald said:

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backintexas2013 said:

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Old McDonald said:

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the way trump has handled ukraine so far is roosevelt urging churchill to sue hitler for peace on any terms, and demanding england's coal reserves in return. shameful.

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You have no plan other than Trump bad give Ukraine money. That's shameful

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and trump has no plan other than give putin what he wants and hope he doesn't do it again. unamerican and cowardly.

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The only reason this is going on is because your walking vegetable became president.

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we can dispense with this talking point now. considering how ardently trump and his admin have allied themselves with putin throughout this conflict, had he been president in 2022 the russian flag would be flying over kiev today.

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Trump was president for 4 years. Weird, Putin didn't bother invading until after he was gone..

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Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 before Trump was elected.

I'd say Ukraine is much closer to Belarus and not even in the same league as Poland. Ukraine may want to break from the Soviets but all I've seen over the past years is that they are essentially using the same playbook as the russians.

I took some time to think and look and Poland was the example i was going to use as a successful eastern bloc country. It's possible to succeed but it must reject all the traits of their former rulers. I contend Ukraine hasn't done enough of that. they installed a government that works quite a bit the same of the USSR. Dirty money, corrupt officials and warlords.

Heineken-Ashi said:

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Old McDonald said:

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RafterAg223 said:

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Old McDonald said:

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backintexas2013 said:

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Old McDonald said:

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the way trump has handled ukraine so far is roosevelt urging churchill to sue hitler for peace on any terms, and demanding england's coal reserves in return. shameful.

---

You have no plan other than Trump bad give Ukraine money. That's shameful

---

and trump has no plan other than give putin what he wants and hope he doesn't do it again. unamerican and cowardly.

---

The only reason this is going on is because your walking vegetable became president.

---

we can dispense with this talking point now. considering how ardently trump and his admin have allied themselves with putin throughout this conflict, had he been president in 2022 the russian flag would be flying over kiev today.

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Trump was president for 4 years. Weird, Putin didn't bother invading until after he was gone..

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and now that he's back in power, moscow is singing his praises all over telegram. trump in power is a boon to russia, there's no other way to spin it.

rootube said:

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Casual Cynic said:

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The reality is that Ukraine is in a war it can't win. Trump recognizes that Ukraine can't win and wants to negotiate a peace on terms that Russia will actually accept. For this, Trump gets accused of being a Russia undercover agent.
The war will most likely end in Ukraine losing considerable territory, in the best case scenario. And with total defeat for Ukraine in the worst. I think Zelenskyy wants to hold out for some fantasy of Russia retreating from Ukrainian land.
If I were Trump I would cut all aid and see how Ukraine does. How much does the situation have to further deteriorate for Zelenskyy to finally realize he can't win?

---

Can you imagine how that would sound to a Ukrainian who was told by all the western experts who said they couldn't withstand the original invasion?

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It depends on what you think Putin is actually trying to accomplish.

rootube said:

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Heineken-Ashi said:

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Old McDonald said:

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RafterAg223 said:

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Old McDonald said:

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backintexas2013 said:

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Old McDonald said:

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the way trump has handled ukraine so far is roosevelt urging churchill to sue hitler for peace on any terms, and demanding england's coal reserves in return. shameful.

---

You have no plan other than Trump bad give Ukraine money. That's shameful

---

and trump has no plan other than give putin what he wants and hope he doesn't do it again. unamerican and cowardly.

---

The only reason this is going on is because your walking vegetable became president.

---

we can dispense with this talking point now. considering how ardently trump and his admin have allied themselves with putin throughout this conflict, had he been president in 2022 the russian flag would be flying over kiev today.

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Trump was president for 4 years. Weird, Putin didn't bother invading until after he was gone..

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Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 before Trump was elected.

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So when Biden was in office?

The United States used to fight wars to protect free peoples from invading forces. Some of them against the very same aggressor that now threatens Ukraine. And we did this because it was morally right to do so. If you are not disgusted by our leader openly bullying the leader of a defensive country and saddling up to minimize the atrocities of the aggressor, then I don't know what to tell you. We shouldn't base our wars and military support off of what benefits us monetarily, we should base them off of what's right and what's wrong. Why else are we spending by far the most money on military advancements if not to defend free peoples where they are threatened?