Trump-Vance-Zelenskyy

175,456 Views | 1748 Replies | Last: 6 mo ago by ts5641
flown-the-coop
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Also well said and consistent with my point.

Some reflection on how we wound up with Putin invading Ukraine multiple times and the overall reluctance by Europe and the US to go toe to toe with Russia says quite a bit about Ukraine.

Simply, we defended Kuwait much more heavily against Saddam? Why?

And only partial credit if you say oil.
nortex97
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Good Trump!

LOL:
Yukon Cornelius
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Putin won't sign peace deal with someone not elected.
PlaneCrashGuy
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This is wonderful news. Peace is coming, your move Z.
flown-the-coop
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Yukon Cornelius said:

Putin won't sign peace deal with someone not elected.


Putin will do what Trump tells him to do. He knows Trump is both dead serious and committed to resolving this conflict and ensuring peace.

It's funny people call Trump "Putin's puppet" when the opposite is true and always has been.

For both Z and Putin, not coming to the table with a sincere resolution will be very costly to them and Trump's team has been making this very clear to both of them.
nortex97
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Whispers…
docb
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flown-the-coop said:

Yukon Cornelius said:

Putin won't sign peace deal with someone not elected.


Putin will do what Trump tells him to do. He knows Trump is both dead serious and committed to resolving this conflict and ensuring peace.

It's funny people call Trump "Putin's puppet" when the opposite is true and always has been.

For both Z and Putin, not coming to the table with a sincere resolution will be very costly to them and Trump's team has been making this very clear to both of them.
Honestly I don't think this is the case at all. Putin has been in power a lot longer than Trump and he will likely remain in power 4 years from now after Trump is done. I think Putin is more willing to discuss peace at this point as being more of an off ramp, although likely temporary. And when I say temporary that might mean 5-6 years. Putin never expected to get punched in the mouth by Ukraine. He thought it would just be Georgia or 2014 Ukraine 2.0. All the aid given to Ukraine so far by all the countries has allowed them to cause a considerable level of destruction to the Russian military and Ukranian drones have done considerable damage to a lot of Russian oil production/economy. Don't think this is over just because of some "peace deal". If history tells us anything we all know how Putin lives up to his promises.
Ellis Wyatt
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Putin may stay. One thing is certain: America will not continue funding the profiteering and war.
ReturnOfTheAg
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docb said:

flown-the-coop said:

Yukon Cornelius said:

Putin won't sign peace deal with someone not elected.


Putin will do what Trump tells him to do. He knows Trump is both dead serious and committed to resolving this conflict and ensuring peace.

It's funny people call Trump "Putin's puppet" when the opposite is true and always has been.

For both Z and Putin, not coming to the table with a sincere resolution will be very costly to them and Trump's team has been making this very clear to both of them.
Honestly I don't think this is the case at all. Putin has been in power a lot longer than Trump and he will likely remain in power 4 years from now after Trump is done. I think Putin is more willing to discuss peace at this point as being more of an off ramp, although likely temporary. And when I say temporary that might mean 5-6 years. Putin never expected to get punched in the mouth by Ukraine. He thought it would just be Georgia or 2014 Ukraine 2.0. All the aid given to Ukraine so far by all the countries has allowed them do cause a considerable level of destruction to the Russian military and Ukranian drones have done considerable damage to a lot of Russian oil production/economy. Don't think this is over just because of some "peace deal". If history tells us anything we all know how Putin lives up to his promises.


Finally a level headed take
nortex97
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Ellis Wyatt said:

Putin may stay. One thing is certain: America will not continue funding the profiteering and war.
If Putin left/were deposed near term we'd likely face a much more bellicose replacement, anyway. Patrushev or Medvedev in particular would be a problem.

One would think wishcasting for regime change would recognize it rarely works out in our favor, after pulling it off in places like Libya, Syria, Iraq, Ukraine and Brazil relatively recently.
nortex97
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Russian poster below but this references a claim in German BILD media.

Trump hasn't said this at all. I am skeptical.
Burdizzo
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The analysis on Putin that continues to stick with me after 30 years is that he aspires to reconstruct the old Soviet Union, not so much as a political entity, but from a geographic influence. What he wants is Russia to control most of the same stuff the Soviet Union traditionally did except it is not run by a bunch of corrupt politburo stooges; it is run by him.

We are not dealing with a political ideology as much as we are dealing with a gangster. And for that matter, Ukraine is run by a bunch of gangsters too

Trump has approached this as if he himself is a gangster and offered Zelenskyy a deal he can't refuse. We are done loaning/giving money and stuff to Ukraine and getting nothing in return. Zelenskyy now has two options: go forward on his own and probably get crushed by the gangster Putin, or he turns over his assets to the US/Trump so that we have a tangible interest in his territory. Either way, Zelenskyy is out.

The US doesn't and should care if Ukraine falls because this ought to be more of Europe's concern than it is. But if Ukraine insists we are involved, it needs to be on our terms with a vested interest.

Granting us access to the minerals is protection money. We are dealing with old world ideology of power and territory, so that is how Trump is presenting this. If you want our help, you need to pay. No more Mr. Nice Guy.
titan
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LMCane said:

Zobel said:

I don't know if we have. "Enough" means Russia stops their program of expansion that they've been on for the past few decades.

The US is not going to be materially economically impacted by continued materiel support to Ukraine. Those dollars are spent domestically anyway.
past "few decades"?!?!

Imperial Russia was at the borders of France in 1815!

have you looked at a map of the Soviet Union in 1940?!

as I asked before- EXACTLY when is it enough attrition (which is a fairly amoral strategy in the first place)

so your OWN strategy- you admitted you don't know when it is enough time.

usually when people don't know how their strategy should end - it's not a good strategy.
Are you seriously forgetting Napoleon's invasion of Russia!? Imperial Russia was allied with other monarchies against Napoleon.

Russian's remember Napoleon's invasion second only to Hitler's. It is indeed part of that mentality they have of - somewhat warranted - paranoia. And are you really seeing a `continual' expansion between entirely different governments and eras of Russia? Each has a historical context.

That said, Russia needs to be looked at in terms of events after Gorbachev. Its hardly fair to input the Soviet deeds uncritically to them unless going to "re-assign" the deeds of 19th C and WW I and WW II to Germany.

Historical forces are always in motion.
FrioAg 00:
Leftist Democrats "have completely overplayed the Racism accusation. Honestly my first reaction when I hear it today is to assume bad intentions by the accuser, not the accused."
oh no
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Burdizzo said:

he aspires to reconstruct the old Soviet Union,
Stating things like this as fact is western propaganda. It works both ways between Russian propaganda and western propaganda though. Truth is always closer to the middle.

I don't believe Russia is a threat to Poland, Latvia, Lithuania, Estonia, Belarus, etc. Even if in the future, Belarus decides on their own to rejoin Russia, Russia is not trying to take over Europe.

Putin, nor anyone else in Russia, has said they want anything of the sort. Western propaganda has programmed this into peoples' minds about Russian expansion.

Since the USSR broke up in 1991, 34 years ago, Russia has had to protect Chechnya from terrorists in the first fighting there, then responded to bombings from Chechnyans in Russia before going to fight there a second time (1990s), supported a large pro-Russian separatist movement in Georgia against its own government (2008), annexed Crimea when their own people rose up against its own government to rejoin Russia (2014), and they currently support the pro-Russian movement of the majority of the people in Donbas.

However, if not for massive corruption, western/CIA-led coups on its government, western bio labs set up next door, the constant threats of NATO expansion next door so military bases can be set up there, bluffs about not caring about "minor incursions", and an extremely embarrassing weak Afghan exit, Russia never would have made a single move into Donbas in 2022.

Extremely foolish miscalculations by US/Nato and the west, as sanctions have not only not really hurt Russia that much, but that and sabotaging a subsea energy pipeline that should have provided prosperity and security (mutual interest in success) for both Russia and Europe have driven Russia further away from us and closer with China, a real threat, while we waste hundreds of billions of dollars to a corrupt regime and allocate a significant amount of assets and artillery over there where there should have been zero threat to us or Nato.

There is no logic that a peace deal in Ukraine now that includes Russia controlling Donbas in exchange for commitments from both sides about reconstruction and not expanding nato will lead to future Russian expansion campaigns in the Baltic states or anywhere else. They are weak and can't actually do anything that really threatens US. Just stop provoking them and they will be quiet. In fact, while they are not good guys or innocent of everything, it would behoove the west to pull them closer to our side and let them profit from selling their vast natural resources to the west, because China is in position for world domination while our propaganda machine programs everyone to fear and hate Russia because Russia is trying to reunite the USSR.
titan
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Can't star that enough. So correct about both sides. Especially the going back to Yeltsin. Finally one is looking at things before the arbitrary talking point date of 2014.

FrioAg 00:
Leftist Democrats "have completely overplayed the Racism accusation. Honestly my first reaction when I hear it today is to assume bad intentions by the accuser, not the accused."
nortex97
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Trump wants Zelensky to quit: RT (citing NBC possibly fake news)
Quote:

US President Donald Trump has privately made it clear to his aides that Vladimir Zelensky should quit as the Ukrainian leader, NBC has reported, citing an administration source.

The report comes ahead of negotiations between senior US officials and Zelensky's chief of staff in Jeddah, Saudi Arabia, on Tuesday. US Secretary of State Marco Rubio, National Security Adviser Mike Waltz and Trump's Middle East envoy Steve Witkoff will discuss a resolution to the three-year conflict with a Ukrainian delegation headed by Andrey Yermak.

Trump wants to see a change in Zelensky's attitude toward peace talks, including a willingness to concede claims to territory, the broadcaster said in an article on Sunday, citing a member of the US administration and another American official.

Trump has reportedly said that Zelensky should be ready to move toward holding a presidential election and "possibly toward stepping down as his country's leader."

Zelensky's presidential term officially expired in May 2024 as he refused to hold a new election, citing martial law imposed during the conflict with Russia.

Kremlin spokesman Dmitry Peskov said in February that Moscow does not consider Zelensky to be a legitimate head of state, but is still ready to negotiate.
aggiehawg
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Apparently, no one knows how to correctly spell Zelensky's first name.

Hint: It is not Vladimir.
flown-the-coop
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It's Voldemort, correct?
javajaws
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aggiehawg said:

Apparently, no one knows how to correctly spell Zelensky's first name.

Hint: It is not Vladimir.
I'm sure he's used to Americans calling him all sorts of names by now....especially by "The Putin" lovers.
JFABNRGR
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Putin had stated more than once he wants a return to the ole soviet union.

Why in the hell would Zelensky seek peace when his civilian apartment buildings keep getting hit with missiles and their POWs shot in the back.

Putin fired a large drone and missile barrage within 24 hours of Trump warning him about further sanctions. Putin isn't listening to Trump.

If the war became costly enough for him with future costs escalating he might announce an end to a successful SMO and a slight pull back, but that has now been delayed because of the opportunity for him to continue.
nortex97
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LOL, the Russians know. Heck, his last name has at least 3 spellings, to say nothing of his morphing over time from a peace guy to…the current status. He had to learn Ukrainian when he moved into politics from his 'servant of the people' TV show 10 years ago.

Paywalled but it's actually a funny (if profane) story still;
Quote:

Over time, the idea morphs into a TV series about an ordinary guy far removed from politics who suddenly becomes president. The series begins with a quarrel between a school history teacher, played by Zelensky, and a colleague.
The angered historian utters an extended, highly obscene monologue about the political situation in Ukraine: "There's no one to choose from. Of two **** sticks, we choose the slightly less ****ty. It's been like that for 25 years. And you know what? We'll choose another **** stick again ...
"When these *******s come to power, all they do is talk ****, ****, ****, then more c---ing ***** The words are different, but the meaning's the same: F--- everyone. F--- you, f---me, f--- us all. A big flying f--- to all of us. If I were in charge for one week, I'd sock it to those ******bags. I'd stick their motorcades and privileges up their *****ing ass. F---ing let a simple teacher live like the president, and the *****-ass president like a simple teacher!"
The ironies of that initial populist peacenik appeal are…beyond my ability to parody.
Flavius Agximus
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aggiehawg said:

Apparently, no one knows how to correctly spell Zelensky's first name.

Hint: It is not Vladimir.
Zelenskyy's name lacks an established Latin-alphabet spelling, and it has been romanized in various ways: for example Volodymyr Zelensky or Zelenskyi from Ukrainian, or Vladimir Zelenskiy from Russian. (Source: Dickinson, Peter (9 June 2019). "Zelensky, Zelenskiy, Zelenskyy: Spelling Confusion Doesn't Help Ukraine". Atlantic Council.)
Woods Ag
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welll freakin said!
aggiehawg
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Flavius Agximus said:

aggiehawg said:

Apparently, no one knows how to correctly spell Zelensky's first name.

Hint: It is not Vladimir.
Zelenskyy's name lacks an established Latin-alphabet spelling, and it has been romanized in various ways: for example Volodymyr Zelensky or Zelenskyi from Ukrainian, or Vladimir Zelenskiy from Russian. (Source: Dickinson, Peter (9 June 2019). "Zelensky, Zelenskiy, Zelenskyy: Spelling Confusion Doesn't Help Ukraine". Atlantic Council.)
Well he is Ukrainian, so the Ukrainian spelling would appear to me to be the preferred one.
Tecolote
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aggiehawg said:

Apparently, no one knows how to correctly spell Zelensky's first name.

Hint: It is not Vladimir.
His official name is spelled in Cyrillic. Whenever it is converted to Latin alphabet it is almost always done phonetically, thus it changes often.

I have colleagues in Russia and they have their names spelled at least a half dozen ways when in print in the western literature. It doesn't bother them and they just say "this is what they put on my renewal passport so spell it that way now"
Woods Ag
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JFABNRGR said:


Why in the hell would Zelensky seek peace when his civilian apartment buildings keep getting hit with missiles and their POWs shot in the back.

Well, that's what you do when you're getting your ass whipped.
Flavius Agximus
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aggiehawg said:

Flavius Agximus said:

aggiehawg said:

Apparently, no one knows how to correctly spell Zelensky's first name.

Hint: It is not Vladimir.
Zelenskyy's name lacks an established Latin-alphabet spelling, and it has been romanized in various ways: for example Volodymyr Zelensky or Zelenskyi from Ukrainian, or Vladimir Zelenskiy from Russian. (Source: Dickinson, Peter (9 June 2019). "Zelensky, Zelenskiy, Zelenskyy: Spelling Confusion Doesn't Help Ukraine". Atlantic Council.)
Well he is Ukrainian, so the Ukrainian spelling would appear to me to be the preferred one.
Well he grew up speaking Russian and learned Ukrainian later in life, so he's probably not offended by Vladimir.
ReturnOfTheAg
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Woods Ag said:

JFABNRGR said:


Why in the hell would Zelensky seek peace when his civilian apartment buildings keep getting hit with missiles and their POWs shot in the back.

Well, that's what you do when you're getting your ass whipped.


So all of Europe should have rolled over and sought "peace" in WW2 and we should have stayed out of it
Flavius Agximus
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ReturnOfTheAg said:

Woods Ag said:

JFABNRGR said:


Why in the hell would Zelensky seek peace when his civilian apartment buildings keep getting hit with missiles and their POWs shot in the back.

Well, that's what you do when you're getting your ass whipped.


So all of Europe should have rolled over and sought "peace" in WW2 and we should have stayed out of it
Only if you're cool with genocide.
Ellis Wyatt
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javajaws said:

"The Putin" lovers.
Who are they? I have seen or heard a very, very small number of people anywhere who express anything that could remotely be construed as support for Putin.
quote:
"But you say that money is made by the strong at the expense of the weak? What strength do you mean? It is not the strength of guns or muscles. Wealth is the product of man's capacity to think. Then is money made by the man who invents a motor at the expense of those who did not invent it? Is money made by the intelligent at the expense of the fools? By the able at the expense of the incompetent? By the ambitious at the expense of the lazy? Money is made--bef
ReturnOfTheAg
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Flavius Agximus said:

ReturnOfTheAg said:

Woods Ag said:

JFABNRGR said:


Why in the hell would Zelensky seek peace when his civilian apartment buildings keep getting hit with missiles and their POWs shot in the back.

Well, that's what you do when you're getting your ass whipped.


So all of Europe should have rolled over and sought "peace" in WW2 and we should have stayed out of it
Only if you're cool with genocide.


So we're cool with what Russia is doing in Ukraine?
Flavius Agximus
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ReturnOfTheAg said:

Flavius Agximus said:

ReturnOfTheAg said:

Woods Ag said:

JFABNRGR said:


Why in the hell would Zelensky seek peace when his civilian apartment buildings keep getting hit with missiles and their POWs shot in the back.

Well, that's what you do when you're getting your ass whipped.


So all of Europe should have rolled over and sought "peace" in WW2 and we should have stayed out of it
Only if you're cool with genocide.


So we're cool with what Russia is doing in Ukraine?
Can you give us a few links about the genocide occurring in Ukraine?
Woods Ag
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ReturnOfTheAg said:

Woods Ag said:

JFABNRGR said:


Why in the hell would Zelensky seek peace when his civilian apartment buildings keep getting hit with missiles and their POWs shot in the back.

Well, that's what you do when you're getting your ass whipped.


So all of Europe should have rolled over and sought "peace" in WW2 and we should have stayed out of it
Well these situations are exactly the same.... lol

Lets see.. If the US stopped funding europe in the war and Nazi Germany was willing to negotiate peace, I am sure they would have been willing to negotiate.

Ukraine is in a situation where the US wants to stop funding and the EU has showed they have no desire to fill the gap, so what are their choices? Keep getting innocent people killed or protect their citizens.
ReturnOfTheAg
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Flavius Agximus said:

ReturnOfTheAg said:

Flavius Agximus said:

ReturnOfTheAg said:

Woods Ag said:

JFABNRGR said:


Why in the hell would Zelensky seek peace when his civilian apartment buildings keep getting hit with missiles and their POWs shot in the back.

Well, that's what you do when you're getting your ass whipped.


So all of Europe should have rolled over and sought "peace" in WW2 and we should have stayed out of it
Only if you're cool with genocide.


So we're cool with what Russia is doing in Ukraine?
Can you give us a few links about the genocide occurring in Ukraine?


Genocide Definition:

"Violent attacks with the specific intent to destroy, in whole or in part, a national, ethnic, racial, or religious group." - 18 U.S.C. 1091 U.S. DOJ (But who believes the DOJ these days right since denying our legal system is all the rage these days)

Putin's own quotes:

"We will seek to demilitarize and denazify Ukraine."

"Ukraine must be part of the Russian world. Otherwise, it does not have a future."

"The Ukrainian language is a distorted version of the Russian language. It was artificially constructed and should never have existed."

Medvedev

"Ukraine should not exist in any form and that Russia will continue to wage war against any independent Ukrainian state."

Timofey Sergeytsev (Russian Journalist and Political Analyst)

Sergeytsev advocates for "brutal censorship" of Ukrainian culture and large-scale "de-ukrainization" of Ukrainians in territories occupied by Russia.

He asserts that "Ukraine's existence is 'impossible' as a nation-state" and that the word "Ukraine" itself cannot be allowed to exist.

Then there's the part where they're carpet bombing civilians and dropping artillery daily on apartment buildings.

Sounds like genocide, looks like genocide, sooooo
FIDO_Ags
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Quote:

Well, that's what you do when you're getting your ass whipped.


Uhh, that's not what is happening in Ukraine. Far from it. Ukraine was whipping Russia before foreign started pouring in. The aid only arrived only after the world figured out that the Ukrainians could hold their own against Russia. Now Russia is doing what it has always done, throw bodies at a problem until it's solved. And Russia does have enough bodies to solve it that way, but this war is years from that.
 
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