Old McDonald said:

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Heineken-Ashi said:

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Old McDonald said:

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RafterAg223 said:

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Old McDonald said:

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backintexas2013 said:

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Old McDonald said:

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the way trump has handled ukraine so far is roosevelt urging churchill to sue hitler for peace on any terms, and demanding england's coal reserves in return. shameful.

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You have no plan other than Trump bad give Ukraine money. That's shameful

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and trump has no plan other than give putin what he wants and hope he doesn't do it again. unamerican and cowardly.

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The only reason this is going on is because your walking vegetable became president.

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we can dispense with this talking point now. considering how ardently trump and his admin have allied themselves with putin throughout this conflict, had he been president in 2022 the russian flag would be flying over kiev today.

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Trump was president for 4 years. Weird, Putin didn't bother invading until after he was gone..

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and now that he's back in power, moscow is singing his praises all over telegram. trump in power is a boon to russia, there's no other way to spin it.

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I don't have to spin anything. The guy I voted for is trying to stop my tax dollars from funding a war that would have never started had he been president.

Old McDonald said:

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the myth that trump would have magically prevented the war is farcical. his capitulation to putin and antagonism toward ukraine has done more to embolden russian aggression in the past thirty days than any president in decades. he sees the putins of the world as examples to emulate, not as enemies to thwart.

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Pretty sure he was more emboldened three years ago when he actually invaded. If you haven't noticed by now, Trump is flipping the tables because he is tired of watching us do the same things over and over again and failing. There are three options:
1) The U.S. sends troops and starts WWIII with possible nuclear war
2) We continue to send billions to Ukraine with no end in sight and could eventually lead to WWIII
3) We play mediator and broker a deal to stop it all.

Old McDonald said:

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Heineken-Ashi said:

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Old McDonald said:

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RafterAg223 said:

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Old McDonald said:

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backintexas2013 said:

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Old McDonald said:

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the way trump has handled ukraine so far is roosevelt urging churchill to sue hitler for peace on any terms, and demanding england's coal reserves in return. shameful.

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You have no plan other than Trump bad give Ukraine money. That's shameful

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and trump has no plan other than give putin what he wants and hope he doesn't do it again. unamerican and cowardly.

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The only reason this is going on is because your walking vegetable became president.

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we can dispense with this talking point now. considering how ardently trump and his admin have allied themselves with putin throughout this conflict, had he been president in 2022 the russian flag would be flying over kiev today.

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Trump was president for 4 years. Weird, Putin didn't bother invading until after he was gone..

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and now that he's back in power, moscow is singing his praises all over telegram. trump in power is a boon to russia, there's no other way to spin it.

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No need to spin something we don't care about

Old Sarge said:

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agmeister said:

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backintexas2013 said:

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Ukraine isn't a position of strength. We don't have to have a deal. They do. They are the short stack at the table and they don't realize it.

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Trump wants 1/2 trillion in minerals. And he didn't get it. I think that is the bottom line. Let's see how it plays out.

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Ukraine owes us, bigtime. They don't have the cash to pay us back. However, they have rare earth minerals under their feet. They want our protection. They want to sell those rare earth minerals under their feet to the highest bidder and still demand our protection. They sell them to someone else, and we will not see the RTI. They are major grifters as well. Some of the arms we gave them ended up Mexican Cartel hands. WTF?

That **** does not fly.

We are willing to continue to protect you, and manage a peace that will save your son's, and all we want is some, maybe most of, what is under your feet and you'll keep most of your country from Russia. And you get high and mighty an mouthy while at it. I am hearing the reason they did the open discussion in front of reporters today was to share how Zelensky is so demanding and entitled behind the scenes. If so, it was eye opening and we all needed to see it.

Putin is a ruthless, evil POS. Zelensky is a pro grifter, who has a country that used to be part of Russia, and is profiting off of the war. We want the rare earth minerals under Z's feet, and will help him keep most of his country.

It's not hard Z.

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This lie right here needs to die in a fire. There were NO security guarantees in the deal. Zero. None. Zilch. Absolutely nothing in writing. Zelenskyy was on board with the monies. He NEEDs the security guarantees and after the hell Ukraine has gone through in the last generation, I do not blame him. Hell, I agree with him.

This assumption that America will protect it's allies has long died and I agree with every nation that wants it in writing. Does that make Zelenskyy a tyrant and a grifter? Pfft. Absolutely not. This board I swear....

Zelenkskyy should not have lost his cool, but I also understand his position. He got ****ed over by Biden and now Trump is also stringing him along. For no purpose whatsoever, unless something has already been worked out with Russia. Which is literally the only thing I can think of at this point.

What is so frustrating is that President Trump, despite all the money we've already spent, is still trying with the mineral rights deal to strengthen Ukraine's leverage prior to negotiations (not to mention help with the economic redevelopment of Ukraine after the war is over in a way the American people will accept), and as of now it appears that Zelensky won't take it.

I've got my theories as to why, but I'll hold off on those for now.

The larger point is... the best chance Zelensky has to preserve as much Ukrainian territory as possible, preserve as much Ukrainian sovereignty as possible, preserve as much of Ukraine's wealth and infrastructure as possible, and most importantly save as many Ukrainian lives as possible, is to sign the mineral rights deal - which is the best/most effective "security guarantee" he's going to get from the United States that Russia will accept - and agree to an immediate ceasefire.

The longer and/or harder he resists will only lead to worse outcomes for Ukraine.

Old McDonald said:

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RafterAg223 said:

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Old McDonald said:

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backintexas2013 said:

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Old McDonald said:

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the way trump has handled ukraine so far is roosevelt urging churchill to sue hitler for peace on any terms, and demanding england's coal reserves in return. shameful.

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You have no plan other than Trump bad give Ukraine money. That's shameful

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and trump has no plan other than give putin what he wants and hope he doesn't do it again. unamerican and cowardly.

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The only reason this is going on is because your walking vegetable became president.

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we can dispense with this talking point now. considering how ardently trump and his admin have allied themselves with putin throughout this conflict, had he been president in 2022 the russian flag would be flying over kiev today.

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Now you are just making stuff up that only satisfies you.

Here is Zelenskyy's position. He can not dispossess Russian troops from any Ukr. territory that they have taken. Without the ability to tap into a "North Korean" type country who could put boots on the ground to fight and die for Ukraine…….Ukraine will slowly lose the war.
It is just fact this will occur. Ukr could start drafting their 18 to 22 year olds but that will only delay the inevitable and result in more deaths.

Russia doesn't have to do anything. They can keep fighting and dying. They can and most likely refuse to return any land they have won. Russia is in a position of strength. Unfortunately Ukr is in a position

Trump will not offer boots on the ground, but he is smart by advocating a mineral rights dealt with Ukr that provides a way for both sides to make cash and to earn mo etc back we dont have to pay for their war.

All Zelenskyy had to do is talk very little and be grateful. I get and actually understand why he casted doubt but
I get Z is human but man did he pick a bad time to lose his composure.

Casual Cynic said:

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rootube said:

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Casual Cynic said:

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The reality is that Ukraine is in a war it can't win. Trump recognizes that Ukraine can't win and wants to negotiate a peace on terms that Russia will actually accept. For this, Trump gets accused of being a Russia undercover agent.
The war will most likely end in Ukraine losing considerable territory, in the best case scenario. And with total defeat for Ukraine in the worst. I think Zelenskyy wants to hold out for some fantasy of Russia retreating from Ukrainian land.
If I were Trump I would cut all aid and see how Ukraine does. How much does the situation have to further deteriorate for Zelenskyy to finally realize he can't win?

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Can you imagine how that would sound to a Ukrainian who was told by all the western experts who said they couldn't withstand the original invasion?

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It depends on what you think Putin is actually trying to accomplish.

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Something between what they accomplished with Belarus and Chechnya. They didn't have to invade Belarus because they were able to get a corrupt boob into office and keep him there. The Chechens fought back until Putin subdued them through tactics much like what they've wrought against the Ukrainian civilian population, and then Putin bought off the boob son of the Chechen leader. Either way, Putin wants Ukraine entirely in his pocket, eventually.

PA24 said:

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Casual Cynic said:

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The reality is that Ukraine is in a war it can't win. Trump recognizes that Ukraine can't win and wants to negotiate a peace on terms that Russia will actually accept. For this, Trump gets accused of being a Russia undercover agent.
The war will most likely end in Ukraine losing considerable territory, in the best case scenario. And with total defeat for Ukraine in the worst. I think Zelenskyy wants to hold out for some fantasy of Russia retreating from Ukrainian land.
If I were Trump I would cut all aid and see how Ukraine does. How much does the situation have to further deteriorate for Zelenskyy to finally realize he can't win?

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They may fight for 50 years and Europe is accustom to 100 year wars, so is Russia.
Trump needs to stay out of it, no body really cares for either country, both corrupt as hell.

And then you have Europe funding Russia with purchasing their oil/gas while sending arms to Ukraine.
Poland is the big winner, getting all those young white females and babies and sending their husbands back to Ukraine to fight.

They are all kinfolk, Hatfield and McCoy on steroids. What mess Biden got us into.

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It's funny you say the bolded. Trump pointed that out in his first term and got laughed at by the stupid Euros.

1. we never fought a hot war against Russia. not one i can remember anyway.

2. most people here are against going to war with anyone. particularly when all of Europe separates us and they're more than capable of fighting if they see fit.

we are against throwing money down an endless pit of despair and not having any ROI, particularly when the war can't be won by the Ukrainians.

I'm looking for an off ramp here. We all are.

I wonder how many anti-vietnam, anti gulf war posters here are for now cheering for American involvement in Ukraine

After watching the entire Oval Office spectacle it's clear that Trump realized he is negotiating with a child. Zelensky actually wants the USA and Europe to help him kick Russia out of the occupied territory ! Zelensky will have to learn the painful hard way of sitting around alone and watching the war burn itself out !

TresPuertas said:

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1. we never fought a hot war against Russia. not one i can remember anyway.

2. most people here are against going to war with anyone. particularly when all of Europe separates us and they're more than capable of fighting if they see fit.

we are against throwing money down an endless pit of despair and not having any ROI, particularly when the war can't be won by the Ukrainians.

I'm looking for an off ramp here. We all are.

I wonder how many anti-vietnam, anti gulf war posters here are for now cheering for American involvement in Ukraine

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Also, I don't recall fighting any wars against enemies with nukes.

The people that put the current administration in office, don't care about the Ukraine and that's clear by exit data. Ukraine wasn't even in the top five maybe not even top 10.

VDH with another gem

TresPuertas said:

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I'd say Ukraine is much closer to Belarus and not even in the same league as Poland. Ukraine may want to break from the Soviets but all I've seen over the past years is that they are essentially using the same playbook as the russians.

I took some time to think and look and Poland was the example i was going to use as a successful eastern bloc country. It's possible to succeed but it must reject all the traits of their former rulers. I contend Ukraine hasn't done enough of that. they installed a government that works quite a bit the same of the USSR. Dirty money, corrupt officials and warlords.

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Uuuh yes. You know why they are closer to Belarus than Poland? Poland became a functioning democracy not under the control of Russia in 1989. Ukraine wasn't able to break free until 2002. And during the orange revolution when Ukraine installed Yushchenko as their president Russian agents poisoned him and almost killed him. They attempted to install another puppet Russian leader again after that.

[Plenty of warning given last night. All users, address arguments with counter-arguments ON TOPIC only or ignore. Do not engage in any form of name calling, trolling, or thread derailing, overt or implied. -Staff]

samurai_science said:

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The people that put the current administration in office, don't care about the Ukraine and that's clear by exit data. Ukraine wasn't even in the top five maybe not even top 10.

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Actually Ukraine enjoyed pretty consistent bipartisan support in the lead up to the election. I would agree that has changed recently where it's more divided along party lines.

TheNotoriousP.I.P. said:

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The United States used to fight wars to protect free peoples from invading forces. Some of them against the very same aggressor that now threatens Ukraine. And we did this because it was morally right to do so. If you are not disgusted by our leader openly bullying the leader of a defensive country and saddling up to minimize the atrocities of the aggressor, then I don't know what to tell you. We shouldn't base our wars and military support off of what benefits us monetarily, we should base them off of what's right and what's wrong. Why else are we spending by far the most money on military advancements if not to defend free peoples where they are threatened?

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Thats a relatively new war strategy

Zona81 said:

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Street Fighter said:

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Teslag said:

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annie88 said:

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mallen said:

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Zelensky is a hero, Trump and Vance are imbeciles.

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Dumbest take of the day.

A hero? What makes you think he's a hero?

Gosh, I remember when Trump was president the first time, the leftist media said what a horrible person Zelenskkt was that he was a fascist and a dictator, and Trump was a horrible person to try to deal with him. And then somehow he became a hero during the Democrats corrupt administration.

What a joke.

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We are well aware that the the pro-russia side thinks a real hero would lay down and surrender.

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It's not that, but this dude is no hero nor is he brave. He can wear all the quasi-military outfits he wants and it won't change anything. And he'll keep it going as long as he can keep banking money away; once that sweet grift runs dry he'll disappear like a roach when the lights come on.

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Sweet Grift??? Okay.
But we have a draft-dodging reality TV star president that has been grifting off the public for 30+ years. Trump University is my personal favorite, but the list is a long one. Even the Bible got the Trump treatment. How much money is he conjuring up with his latest crap like the dopey trading cards, coins, watches? It never ends.

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I don't care about that what I care about is spending money which will further put a burden on our middle class. Trump isn't stealing from the American taxpayers. The other guy is.

rootube said:

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samurai_science said:

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The people that put the current administration in office, don't care about the Ukraine and that's clear by exit data. Ukraine wasn't even in the top five maybe not even top 10.

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Actually Ukraine enjoyed pretty consistent bipartisan support in the lead up to the election. I would agree that has changed recently where it's more divided along party lines.

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The people who voted for the current administration, didn't have Ukraine in the top five issues they care about that's a fact. Who cares about bipartisan support the people who elected the current administration wants the administration to focus on what they care about

[Plenty of warning given last night. All users, address arguments with counter-arguments ON TOPIC only or ignore. Do not engage in any form of name calling, trolling, or thread derailing, overt or implied. -Staff]

Old McDonald said:

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the myth that trump would have magically prevented the war is farcical. his capitulation to putin and antagonism toward ukraine has done more to embolden russian aggression in the past thirty days than any president in decades. he sees the putins of the world as examples to emulate, not as enemies to thwart.

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Whats your ideal plan for this war?

I think it's clear Putin completely miscalculated which president to invade under. Had Trump been president in 2022 he'd have just berated Zelenskyy into instantly surrendering the entire country without a fight.

Heineken-Ashi said:

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rootube said:

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Heineken-Ashi said:

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Old McDonald said:

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RafterAg223 said:

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Old McDonald said:

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backintexas2013 said:

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Old McDonald said:

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the way trump has handled ukraine so far is roosevelt urging churchill to sue hitler for peace on any terms, and demanding england's coal reserves in return. shameful.

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You have no plan other than Trump bad give Ukraine money. That's shameful

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and trump has no plan other than give putin what he wants and hope he doesn't do it again. unamerican and cowardly.

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The only reason this is going on is because your walking vegetable became president.

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we can dispense with this talking point now. considering how ardently trump and his admin have allied themselves with putin throughout this conflict, had he been president in 2022 the russian flag would be flying over kiev today.

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Trump was president for 4 years. Weird, Putin didn't bother invading until after he was gone..

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Russia invaded Ukraine in 2014 before Trump was elected.

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So when Biden was in office?

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You might want to Google that. They invaded during the Obama administration. We did absolutely nothing. Then they took Crimea. Trump didn't really do anything about it either unless you count pressuring Zelenskyy for Hunter Biden laptop help in exchange for weapons. Biden gave weapons but too little too late and here we are with Trump having a meltdown in the Oval Office. I'd say we botched the whole thing on a bipartisan basis.

[Plenty of warning given last night. All users, address arguments with counter-arguments ON TOPIC only or ignore. Do not engage in any form of name calling, trolling, or thread derailing, overt or implied. -Staff]

Burnsey said:

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Jay@AgsReward.com said:

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It is amazing that a country invades a sovereign country and we are on the side of the invaders. That is the heart of the matter and it is disturbing.

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Sorry pal. That line above doesn't get Ukraine an endless supply of blank checks written on the backs of the US taxpayer. Ukraine's war has dragged on long enough and the billions we've paid to defend them are evidence of our support since long before their invasion. My apologies to Ukraine that they couldn't completely defend their county, but that's just not our concern anymore. Ukraine can't evict the Russians, and the Russians won't win outright as long as we continue to provide Ukraine weapons. It's a stalemate today, tomorrow, and for a month of months from now. It's time to see where peace can be found. Ukraine needs to realize accept the reality of their situation and get on with the idea that the US is not going to lead the charge into WW3 over their problems.

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Agree 100%. The Ukes are slowly losing ground, and haven't proven to be able to mount significant offensives over the past 12-18 months. It's time this war end.

Teslag said:

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I think it's clear Putin completely miscalculated which president to invade under. Had Trump been president in 2022 he'd have just berated Zelenskyy into instantly surrendering the entire country without a fight.

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Hard to respond to this without making fun of how down bad some posters are.

Guess I'll leave it alone.

Why is the good ole USA supposed to provide a security guarantee for Ukraine? The deal that was supposed to be agreed on by both parties today was for the minerals partnership that would economically bind us with Ukraine and provide them more stability. Now we can forget that deal but Ukraine wants us to keep providing financial resources for their war. The American taxpayer will keep footing the war bill, just like we were paying for all the bogus crap that DOGE is uncovering. We're 36T in debt and can't keep spending our tax money on all this waste.