***WCF*** Spurs vs OKC

71,421 Views | 2661 Replies | Last: 13 yr ago by Madden
Whistling For Flies
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Soup:

I didn't say otherwise. My earlier contention that it was an extended rest was wrong. But I said nothing about the length of his rest in the post to which you are responding.

quote:
What about the missed layup right before that horrible shot?


You mean the one where he got the rebound and smartly brought it back out to hold for the final shot?

[This message has been edited by Whistling For Flies (edited 5/31/2012 12:34p).]
Guitarsoup
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AG
quote:
Soup:

I didn't say otherwise. My earlier contention that it was an extended rest was wrong. But I said nothing about the length of his rest in the post to which you are responding.

quote:
What about the missed layup right before that horrible shot?


You mean the one where he got the rebound and smartly brought it back out to hold for the final shot?

[This message has been edited by Whistling For Flies (edited 5/31/2012 12:34p).]


You are adding in his pre rest stats.

He scored 10 points on 1/5 & 8/12 shooting in 16 minutes and missed twice with less than 15 second and the chance to win the game.

Lets not pretend these are spectacular stats. Go look at what rondo did in ot.
Whistling For Flies
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quote:
You are adding in his pre rest stats.


Maybe I am. I'll double check.

You're right. He was 10/5/2 over the last 12 minutes of the game, including overtime. That means that his late game production, if duplicated for a full 48 minutes, would have given him a 40/20/8 stat line. He was obviously horrible late in the game.

Rondo had one of the most spectacular performances in the history of the playoffs. That Lebron wasn't as good as Rondo does not mean that Lebron wasn't good late in the game.
Bunk Moreland
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why doesn't this argument float do a separate thread...or at least the ECF thread, and let this go back to the WCF.

kthxbai
claym711
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AG
I can't believe people are still arguing that Lebron isn't a clutch player. That was and is a fallacy.

Last night with under 5 in the 4th plus OT, Lebron's per 48 stats are:

48 pts
24 reb
9.6 ast
0 to

And that is on an off night for Lebron

In Rondo's best game of his life (and his team still lost), his per 48 stats in that same time frame were". He also hit two lucky 3s in garbage time (a 24% 3pt shooter)

67 pts
4.8 reb
4.8 ast
4.8 to
Guitarsoup
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AG
Lebron was 0-2 in the last 15 seconds of regulation. Missed one layup and had the ball isolated and choose to take a long fallaway two with a someone in his face rather than take it to the hoop fire a higher percentage shoot when he had already shot 8 fts that quarter.

Poor decision making and execution with the game on the line.

But other than missing his two opportunities two end the game in regulation, he played pretty well.
No Handlebars
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...wrong thread, quit crapping all over this one
beerad12man
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AG
Lol, it's funny watching the two of you argue semantics. Guitar, I get what you're saying, but still.... Yes, based on where he was and the graph you are using, it was the lowest percentage shot(and even that's a stretch, since he was 2 feet inside the line and right on it would be worse. Also, I like how in your argument you can use a circled area instead of an exact spot.) But no, it was not the lowest percentage actual two point shot he could have taken. I'd rather him take that one, then drive carelessly into 3 defenders(this is assuming no fouls). I'd rather him take that one, then one 2 feet further. I'd also rather him take that one, than a three pointer. Which in that situation would have been even a worse shot.

Guitar, let me just ask you this question. While it was a bad shot, do you honestly believe there couldn't have been a lower percentage 2 point shot taken? Have you never seen a two point shot that you felt was lower percentage than the one Lebron took? YOur chart doesn't take into account off balanced shots, falling down shots, shots into 2/3 defenders that don't have a chance, etc. Point being, while it was a low percentage shot, I've seen far worse end game two point shots than that one.

Other examples, being even a foot or two further away. Or driving into 3 defenders. It's hard to quantify that data, but I'm guessing driving into three defenders is lower percentage than the one Lebron took.

quote:
And I stand by it. The 22' fadeaway two point shot is the worst shot in the NBA.



Based on graphical data, maybe. But it's most certainly not the worst 2 point shot I've seen taken. I've seen far more shots I felt were lower percentage that your little shot can't calculate.

[This message has been edited by beerad12man (edited 5/31/2012 5:14p).]
beerad12man
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quote:
The statistical difference in his shot and an identical shot 6" back is impossible to calculate.



Another problem I have with what you are saying. You are failing to use logic. Who cares if it's statistically impossible to calculate(which it isn't, by the way, using digital data), logic says it is.

Simply put, your point is only valid using statistics, but fails to incorporate simple logic.
Guitarsoup
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AG
I get what you are saying, but I stand behind my statement:
quote:
A 22ft fadeaway shot is the worst shot in the NBA



Are there lower percentage shots? Absolutely. We've all seen the hail marys at the end or quarters or the weird triple team shots that have no chance.

If you want to say that a 90 foot quintuple teamed fadeaway hook shot has a lower expected value, you aren't going to get any argument from me.

Realistically, that shot will never be taken, and I can't think of any time a player ever shot a three when he only needed one point.

I only watched it in real time (no DVR or anything) so if he was a foot in from where I remembered, it that's fine. But regardless, he is ice cold from that spot - 2-20 for the playoffs - and it was a ridiculously poor shot selection.

After watching the 4th, I actually would rather see Bron drive into a triple team, because I have no doubt he would get bailed out on the foul. Because he is so strong, he is incredibly hard to strip once he picks up his dribble.

LeBron's realistic choices were:
1. Call a timeout and set up a play
2. Call a play from the top of the arc
3. Play hero ball and drive to the hoop and go for the win through score or foul
4. Drive and look for the open man with multiple teammates hot. (You don't have to use the entire shot clock since Bos doesn't have a timeout)
5. Call for a pick to get to your hot spot (Bron shoots better from the left than the right)
6. Play hero ball, go one on one and shoot a shot from a spot you aren't very good at.

quote:
While it was a bad shot, do you honestly believe there couldn't have been a lower percentage 2 point shot taken?

Obviously if there are more people in his face, there would be a lower chance he would shoot it. But he went to the place he is the worst at shooting from, shot a lower percentage shot (fadeaway) with a man in his face (lowering the percentage even further. Over the course of the playoffs, he is hitting 10% there. That includes open looks, pick and pops, and contested shots. So what do you think his expected value from that shot would be? Maybe a 5% chance? Maybe less? So his expected value is .1. Maybe he has a 1:20 chance at making that. And yeah, add on layers of complexity, and it gets lower, but he wasn't faced with a double team or anything like that, so it is kinda moot. From the data we have, there is not a worse place for LeBron to shoot the ball in that situation than where he chose to shoot it.

quote:
I've seen far worse end game two point shots than that one.


Durant's double-teamed three against LA would probably be a lower % shot for most players.

quote:
It's hard to quantify that data, but I'm guessing driving into three defenders is lower percentage than the one Lebron took.


I just don't. I think if Lebron drives to the paint and he gets three defenders collapsing, he finds the open man. He is just too good not to and he has done that so many times. I think the outcome would be he gets fouled, he hits the open man , he muscles through for a bucket, he muscles through and misses another layup or he turns it over. And I bet his chance of turning it over in that situation is lower than his chance of clanking that 22' fadeaway with a hand in his face. But we will never know.


quote:
Who cares if it's statistically impossible to calculate(which it isn't, by the way, using digital data), logic says it is.

I'd love to see the data, then.
sharkenleo
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Why the hell this gone on for 2 pages? This is the WCF thread.
aggie_2001_2005
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Why are we talking about the consolation winner (Bron) again.
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Sher Thing
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Aggie Bus Operator
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GO SPURS GO!
dport2009
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AG
ALMOST GAME TIME!!!! Lets go spurs!!
313-7-12thMan
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Spurs!
Guitarsoup
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AG
I hope Westbrook takes 35 shots tonight.
sharkenleo
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@fakecoachpop was just mentioned on TNT
Pahdz
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just in case you're wondering from the aerial views why there isn't a single car on the interstate next to the arena...it's currently awaiting demolition. the entire stretch of I-40 across downtown and outlying areas was relocated south about 1/4 mile or so

Guitarsoup
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AG
I really want to make a DWI Indian joke but I will pass.
Guitarsoup
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AG
Fake Coach Pop is hilarious.
Guitarsoup
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Gregory Popovich ‏@FakeCoachPop
If by "clutch gene" you mean gonorrhea, I'd say 90% chance RT @russbengtson: Do you think Kevin Garnett has the "clutch gene"?
Pahdz
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quote:
I really want to make a DWI Indian joke but I will pass.



won't offend me, we're part of the minority (i.e. those who don't have some card saying they are 1/2048th Cherokee or some crap)
Guitarsoup
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Gregory Popovich ‏@FakeCoachPop
2 Losses. So no. RT @ducks05: Impressed with the impact of Derek Fisher?
Guitarsoup
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Thunder playing inspired D right out of the gates.
sharkenleo
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Just how I exoected OKC to come out. Now just gotta respond.
agwin12
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AG
Spurs sleepwalking right now.
AggieBusDriver
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Time for a new coach Pop catch phrase
agwin12
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AG
Spurs have missed a couple of easy baskets too.

[This message has been edited by agwin12 (edited 5/31/2012 8:09p).]
agwin12
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Appears that Duncan is awake.
sharkenleo
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Good timeout
discobrob
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Perkins
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