Biden invaded Ukraine?Heineken-Ashi said:Yes the circus Ukraine has become thanks to the guy you elected.GeorgiAg said:
Elect a clown, expect a circus.
Trump-Vance-Zelenskyy
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Last: 5 mo ago by ts5641
I see the problem Zelensky is on his knees begging.Horn_in_Aggieland said:.@VP: "Do you think that it's respectful to come to the Oval Office of the United States of America and attack the administration that is trying to prevent the destruction of your country?"@POTUS: "You don't have the cards right now. With us, you start having cards ... You're… pic.twitter.com/iTYyAmfuCJ
— Rapid Response 47 (@RapidResponse47) February 28, 2025
Wow!
Russia is winning just because they have more resources. Putin was a dumbass and did not have his military ready at all. They did not take Kiev because they ran out of Fing gas, not because the Ukrainian defense pushed them back. Had he planned better Kiev would be a battle zone right now or they'd taken it already.rootube said:Ellis Wyatt said:I mean, did he though? He bilked a ton of money from US taxpayers, but Russia won't be leaving Ukraine.rootube said:Ellis Wyatt said:I hope he's searching real estate brochures for where he's going to spend his exile now.Quote:
He's a hero because when the entire western world was making plans to give Ukraine to Russia and was negotiating his exile. He held his country together
Maybe. The last time the experts planned his exile he proceeded to whip Russia's a**.
Considering they were at the doorstep of the capital and now they are bogged down in a in the eastern edge of the country in a war that is going to ruin Russia. I'd say they are winning.
If we attacked Mexico and they pushed us back to the border and out of the "Gulf of America". And our economy was in ruins. Trust me, nobody would be claiming that we were winning the war.
Russia is now a hardened military that will mow though Ukraine if we pull support. Wasn't it a year ago when Mike Johnson withheld the aid package for months, and Ukraine was getting whipped and Russia almost broke through?
That is what was reported at least.
rootube said:newbie11 said:Lol. Luxembourg…laughable.Brother Shamus said:45-70Ag said:Luxembourg stands with Ukraine. You are fighting for your freedom and a rules based international order. 🇱🇺🇺🇦
— Luc Frieden (@LucFrieden) February 28, 2025
lol
And they've got zero capacity to help.
I think a speed bump has more impact on deterring advancing forces.
To be fair there is one of these tweets for every country in Europe right now. Of course tweets don't stop Russians. Will be interesting to see if Europe can actually come together for their defense.
Europe when trying to stand against America
GeorgiAg said:
Elect a clown, expect a circus.
The clown who did the most damage just left office.
BREAKING: Trump is considering ending all ongoing military aid to Ukraine after today.
— Polymarket (@Polymarket) February 28, 2025
75% chance their aid gets cut. pic.twitter.com/1ljtv1iV7v
Hullabaloonatic said:OF COURSE, a peace deal is the best thing BUT WHAT SECURITY GUARANTEES IS THE UNITED STATES WILLING TO COMMIT? Because Russia has shown REPEATEDLY that they do not honor 'ceasefires.' Why would Zelensky capitulate to a peace deal he knows Russia won't honor, without the US and NATO allies pledging continued support should that breach happen?DTP02 said:Hullabaloonatic said:But it is making a difference...Putin hasn't captured Kiev. Russia is ACTIVELY attempting to annex a sovereign allied nation and our support in the form of munitions and old equipment is enough to stalemate the entire attack. Russia is bleeding out financially and literally (they are running out of soldiers and have to beg NK for troops). They would love to negotiate a "cease fire" where they get to keep the land they captured, regroup, and prepare for the next phase of the invasion. WE CANNOT LET THAT HAPPEN unless we are prepared to continue further support if they try again.Gigem314 said:After 3 years of this mess, it's clear that no matter what amount of money we send...it's not making Ukraine any more secure. At some point we have to think about our interests instead of being pushed for more and more and more.rootube said:Gigem314 said:I would hardly call what we've given Ukraine for the past few years "nothing". Ukraine isn't entitled to anything from the U.S. at this point. If Z would rather scoff at the one nation willing to give him significant aid to score points at home, then good luck to him making it work with what he has...because today's display isn't going to sell more Americans on supporting them.Quote:
I disagree. The US was offering Ukraine basically nothing. If you are Zelenskyy, why kiss the ring if there is nothing in it for you? His approval rating at home and in Europe probably went through the roof. Time will tell if that's enough to finish off Russia.
Zelenskyy needed security guarantees. Johnson already said there would be no new aid. This deal only offered vague details on how the US could recover its original investment. What about that makes Ukraine more secure? Russia has already violated two agreements, what on earth would make you think Putin would keep this deal backed by undeveloped mineral rights?
Forcing a peace deal to happen is the best thing for the Ukrainians whose lives would be lost (and, yes, also for the Russians whose lives would be lost, many of whom are fighting against their will or at least due to govt propaganda) AND it keeps us from spending our treasure on someone else's war.
Trump so far is only focused on 'repayment' of money already spent but has been completely unable or unwilling to commit to future support or protection.
The people that elected him dont care about that future support, they voted him into office to enact the things they actually care about.
Hullabaloonatic said:OF COURSE, a peace deal is the best thing BUT WHAT SECURITY GUARANTEES IS THE UNITED STATES WILLING TO COMMIT? Because Russia has shown REPEATEDLY that they do not honor 'ceasefires.' Why would Zelensky capitulate to a peace deal he knows Russia won't honor, without the US and NATO allies pledging continued support should that breach happen?DTP02 said:Hullabaloonatic said:But it is making a difference...Putin hasn't captured Kiev. Russia is ACTIVELY attempting to annex a sovereign allied nation and our support in the form of munitions and old equipment is enough to stalemate the entire attack. Russia is bleeding out financially and literally (they are running out of soldiers and have to beg NK for troops). They would love to negotiate a "cease fire" where they get to keep the land they captured, regroup, and prepare for the next phase of the invasion. WE CANNOT LET THAT HAPPEN unless we are prepared to continue further support if they try again.Gigem314 said:After 3 years of this mess, it's clear that no matter what amount of money we send...it's not making Ukraine any more secure. At some point we have to think about our interests instead of being pushed for more and more and more.rootube said:Gigem314 said:I would hardly call what we've given Ukraine for the past few years "nothing". Ukraine isn't entitled to anything from the U.S. at this point. If Z would rather scoff at the one nation willing to give him significant aid to score points at home, then good luck to him making it work with what he has...because today's display isn't going to sell more Americans on supporting them.Quote:
I disagree. The US was offering Ukraine basically nothing. If you are Zelenskyy, why kiss the ring if there is nothing in it for you? His approval rating at home and in Europe probably went through the roof. Time will tell if that's enough to finish off Russia.
Zelenskyy needed security guarantees. Johnson already said there would be no new aid. This deal only offered vague details on how the US could recover its original investment. What about that makes Ukraine more secure? Russia has already violated two agreements, what on earth would make you think Putin would keep this deal backed by undeveloped mineral rights?
Forcing a peace deal to happen is the best thing for the Ukrainians whose lives would be lost (and, yes, also for the Russians whose lives would be lost, many of whom are fighting against their will or at least due to govt propaganda) AND it keeps us from spending our treasure on someone else's war.
Trump so far is only focused on 'repayment' of money already spent but has been completely unable or unwilling to commit to future support or protection.
A security guarantee? Why in the world would we give them a security guarantee? That's stronger than what NATO countries even have. How in the world does that make sense to you?
We've said we're willing to continue giving them military aid- supplies and equipment, not boots on the ground. And we're willing to help them rebuild.
They've got to do the job of protecting themselves and pay some of the freight. They can use the peace to build up their capabilities and protect their border. If they're smart they give a strong foothold to US businesses to influence our willingness to help maintain stability.
Russia invaded them. It really sucks for them. It's not right, but might makes right. It's not our job to continue paying the tab and it definitely isn't our job to do their fighting.
I was on jury duty the other day, where the defendant struck a plea deal. The judge explained to us that you know it's a good deal with both sides hate it. That means they both had to give up something, not just one party. This rings true to the Ukraine Russia fiasco, no one side should be walking away thinking they just beat the world.
Hullabaloonatic said:rootube said:BlueSmoke said:
Zelensky seems wrapped in righteous indignation and the invasion he feels he is the center-point for the country. I do feel that he cares, but he's missing the bigger picture that there are no winners in this conflict. They can't expel Russia and even is Russia took Ukraine, they can't hold it. It would deplete the last of their forces, then it becomes Baghdad on a much bigger scale.
There's no winning this from either side.
What do you do if you are Zelenskyy?
After the fall of the Soviet Union your country gave up their nuclear weapons in exchange for security guarantees from the US and Russia as part of the Budapest memo to "Protect Ukraine's territorial integrity". Something that everyone naively thought would make the world safer.
Flash forward to 2014 and Russia takes Crimea and the Donbas which are part of Ukraine. The countries eventually sign the Minsk Agreement to stop the war in the Donbas. Russia breaks that agreement and continues to push forward in the Donbas eventually leading to the full scale invasion of Ukraine in '22. Surely you can appreciate how the Ukrainians would be skeptical of a deal with no security guarantees. You have to either naively believe that Russia has changed or make the calculation that you can improve your position with actual guarantees from Europe.
This is something people here can't understand.
1. Why Zelensky can't just accept any peace deal
2. The US's own interests in stopping Russia and supporting a European ally.
Their brain stops functioning at "they should pay for it."
As par of for the course another idiotic statement
When EXACTLY did Ukraine become an ally of the USA?
What does Ukraine provide the US? Ukraine has been a corrupt oligarchy run country for decades. To label them as some sort of example of a shining example of a free and fair democracy is a joke. Ukraine is corrupt to the core. It's been a laundromat for money for decades and still is.
"We're going to turn this red Prius into a soup kitchen!"
SwigAg11 said:AggieShanks said:
He had a negotiation live on television to pressure Zelensky to make the deal because it means more for Trump's legacy to say he negotiated peace. Instead, Zelensky defended his country, called a buck a buck, and went home. Trump was already pulling support. He ran on that, so, nothing changed. Only thing it showed us was that Trump really isn't this strongman that can force peace. He's like any other president. A leader of one country with waning influence abroad.
Apparently if you watch the entire discussion, Trump kept reiterating that the US was willing to continue military aid.I watched the entire press conference with Zelensky. There was 40 minutes of discussion up to the argument. Most people saw at most the last ten minutes. The whole video gives the proper context.
— Richard Hanania (@RichardHanania) February 28, 2025
When I first watched the argument without the proper context, I thought it was…
Quote:
I watched the entire press conference with Zelensky. There was 40 minutes of discussion up to the argument. Most people saw at most the last ten minutes. The whole video gives the proper context. When I first watched the argument without the proper context, I thought it was possible that Trump and Vance ambushed Zelensky or were even trying to humiliate him. That's not what happened.
You had 40 minutes of calm conversation. Vance made a point that didn't attack Zelensky and wasn't even addressed to him, and Zelensky clearly started the argument. In the first 40 minutes, Zelensky kept trying to go beyond what was negotiated in the deal. When Trump was asked a question, it was always "we'll see." Zelensky made blanket assertions that there would be no negotiating with Putin, and that Russia would pay for the war. When Trump said that it was a tragedy that people on both sides were dying, Zelensky interjected that the Russians were the invaders.
For his part, Trump made clear that the US would continue delivering military aid. All Zelensky had to do was remain calm for a few more minutes and they would've signed a deal. The argument started when Trump pointed out that it would be hard to make a deal if you talk about Putin the way Zelensky does. Vance interjects to make the reasonable point that Biden called Putin names and that didn't get us anywhere.
The Zelensky/Trump dynamic was calm and stable. It was when Vance spoke that Zelensky started to interrogate him. Throughout the press conference to that point, everyone was making their arguments directly to the audience. Zelensky decided to challenge Vance and ask him hostile questions. He went back to his point that Putin never sticks to ceasefires, once again implying that negotiations are pointless. Why on earth would you do this? Then came the fight we all saw.
Zelensky was minutes away from being home free, and he would have had the deal and new commitments from the Trump administration. The point Vance made was directed against Biden and the media, taking them to task for speaking in moralistic terms. This offended Zelensky, and that began the argument. I've been a fan of Zelensky up to this point, but this showed so much incompetence, if not emotional instability, that I don't see how he recovers from this. The relationship with the administration is broken. Ukraine should probably go with new leadership at this point.
Exactly, the poster you quoted has not looked at the budgets and obligations those countries have to social programs. They will talk bid on Twitter and at conferences, but that is it.Heineken-Ashi said:rootube said:newbie11 said:Lol. Luxembourg…laughable.Brother Shamus said:45-70Ag said:Luxembourg stands with Ukraine. You are fighting for your freedom and a rules based international order. 🇱🇺🇺🇦
— Luc Frieden (@LucFrieden) February 28, 2025
lol
And they've got zero capacity to help.
I think a speed bump has more impact on deterring advancing forces.
They can't afford it
This is the problem. The EU is their counter to us and I think that's fine. I respect all of their desire to be independent of us and go their own way, even if I think they do exceptionally stupid things in term of economy, immigration, free speech etc.UntoldSpirit said:I would say this policy that you think is so brilliant isn't working today. They already feel little to no obligation to follow our lead. They formed the EU to compete with us and reduce our influence. They have attacked freedom of speech and embraced socialism.Hullabaloonatic said:
You can either have a world where you are the global hegemon and all your allies do what you say and are inextricably bound to your economy, or you can have a world where you demand Europe remilitarizes to "pay its way" only to discover it no longer feels obliged to follow your lead.
Until it comes to this. they'll scream bloody murder if we even thought about dropping out of NATO.Quote:
Yet they continue to take advantage of us by letting us invest in their protection.
Sure they're independent of us (as they should be) but you don't get to enjoy being our friendly rivals on an economic/social side and expect us to be beholden to you on the military side.
rootube said:BlueSmoke said:
Zelensky seems wrapped in righteous indignation and the invasion he feels he is the center-point for the country. I do feel that he cares, but he's missing the bigger picture that there are no winners in this conflict. They can't expel Russia and even is Russia took Ukraine, they can't hold it. It would deplete the last of their forces, then it becomes Baghdad on a much bigger scale.
There's no winning this from either side.
What do you do if you are Zelenskyy?
After the fall of the Soviet Union your country gave up their nuclear weapons in exchange for security guarantees from the US and Russia as part of the Budapest memo to "Protect Ukraine's territorial integrity". Something that everyone naively thought would make the world safer.
Flash forward to 2014 and Russia takes Crimea and the Donbas which are part of Ukraine. The countries eventually sign the Minsk Agreement to stop the war in the Donbas. Russia breaks that agreement and continues to push forward in the Donbas eventually leading to the full scale invasion of Ukraine in '22. Surely you can appreciate how the Ukrainians would be skeptical of a deal with no security guarantees. You have to either naively believe that Russia has changed or make the calculation that you can improve your position with actual guarantees from Europe.
If I was Zelenskyy I would have to sit there and STFU if that is what it took to stop Russia from killing my citizens.
Quote:
Zelenskyy has managed to keep his country in the fight with the second largest military in the world for three years. He's probably going to go down as the second greatest diplomat in history behind Winston Churchill.
Zelensky hasn't had an election in quite awhile.GeorgiAg said:
Elect a clown, expect a circus.
So the left is back to Trump extorting Zelensky again?
Quid pro quo incoming?
What's next, Biden is going to announce he is running in 2028 and the extortion attempt is to get Zelensky to find dirt on Biden and his family.
Do we know what Vindman thought of the exchange?
Quid pro quo incoming?
What's next, Biden is going to announce he is running in 2028 and the extortion attempt is to get Zelensky to find dirt on Biden and his family.
Do we know what Vindman thought of the exchange?
I feel pretty confident in saying that Europeans understand Russia probably a bit better than Americans. And no, they really don't seem too concerned do they? And the reason why is because their leaders know the most likely goal of Putin is to put a buffer zone between Russian soil and NATO and not in conquering central and western Europe, which the Russians don't have the ability to do anyway.45-70Ag said:
Still not an American problem. I'm as hawkish as anyone with the right reasons and not opposed to vaporizing our enemies with nuclear weapons.
But this clown show, this isn't our fight and Europe doesn't really give a damn either.
Those actually sharing a continent with Russia are less concerned about Russia than the war mongers on the other side of the planet. That's pretty telling. And they don't care about Ukraine either.
Ok, I'm going to hack into your life savings. I want all of it, and you want me to leave you alone. Just give me half and we are both equally unhappy.HeadGames said:
I was on jury duty the other day, where the defendant struck a plea deal. The judge explained to us that you know it's a good deal with both sides hate it. That means they both had to give up something, not just one party. This rings true to the Ukraine Russia fiasco, no one side should be walking away thinking they just beat the world.
Just watched it for the first time. Whose idea was it to put that on live tv? Trump so he could be hero on a tv? What a s show! I want to see the huge smiles that had to be on the media faces as that devolved
If Zelenskyy believes that he can go it alone with only Europe backing him up, great! We should congratulate him and never fork over another nickel.
rootube said:Bird Poo said:Biz Ag said:
Can you imagine Churchill or De Gaulle speaking to FDR like that?
If our offer was a minerals deal to recoup our investment with zero weapons or security guarantees. Yes.
Why would we give Ukraine a security guarantee? Explain how that's remotely a good idea for us? That's more than NATO countries get from us.
First time? He does this for ALL of them, are you that uninformed?gabehcoud said:
Just watched it for the first time. Whose idea was it to put that on live tv? Trump so he could be hero on a tv? What a s show!
Urban Ag said:I feel pretty confident in saying that Europeans understand Russia probably a bit better than Americans. And no, they really don't seem too concerned do they? And the reason why is because their leaders know the most likely goal of Putin is to put a buffer zone between Russian soil and NATO and not in conquering central and western Europe, which the Russians don't have the ability to do anyway.45-70Ag said:
Still not an American problem. I'm as hawkish as anyone with the right reasons and not opposed to vaporizing our enemies with nuclear weapons.
But this clown show, this isn't our fight and Europe doesn't really give a damn either.
Those actually sharing a continent with Russia are less concerned about Russia than the war mongers on the other side of the planet. That's pretty telling. And they don't care about Ukraine either.
How many countries in Europe? That's at least how many different understandings of Russia. And they have typically been much friendlier to the Rooskies than the US.
The oligarchs spend mass money in London, Paris and other places and they would love to see them back and for energy prices to drop with the spigots for Russia being turned back on.
Majority of Americans don't care about the Ukraine, this is a fact based on the elections and what people voted for. Exit polls show it
Gigem314 said:Why are they entitled to guarantees when they can't guarantee us anything?rootube said:Bird Poo said:Biz Ag said:
Can you imagine Churchill or De Gaulle speaking to FDR like that?
If our offer was a minerals deal to recoup our investment with zero weapons or security guarantees. Yes.
I'm not saying we are entitled to give them anything. People are attacking Zelenskyy for rejecting a deal that gives him nothing. It seemed bizarre to me that we were even going through this charade. This was a logical outcome given the messages the US has been sending. Our government has publicly.
Blamed Ukraine for starting the war.
Called Zelenskyy the illegitimate leader of his country.
Inflated the amount of aid we have given by 4x
Falsely claimed that Europe is not contributed aid
Conceded that Ukraine will have to give up more territory
Conceded that Ukraine will never join NATO
Excluded Ukraine from negotiations for their own country
Communicated that we have no intention of providing more aid
Communicates that we will not provide security guarantees
All of this BEFORE the start of peace negotiations the Ukrainians were excluded from
Quick, can you name a single Russian concession that has been discussed?
Does any of that sound appealing to a Ukrainian fighting for his country?
samurai_science said:
Majority of Americans don't care about the Ukraine, this is a fact based on the elections and what people voted for. Exit polls show it
To be fair most couldn't find it on a map without the name removed
Comanche_Ag said:SwigAg11 said:AggieShanks said:
He had a negotiation live on television to pressure Zelensky to make the deal because it means more for Trump's legacy to say he negotiated peace. Instead, Zelensky defended his country, called a buck a buck, and went home. Trump was already pulling support. He ran on that, so, nothing changed. Only thing it showed us was that Trump really isn't this strongman that can force peace. He's like any other president. A leader of one country with waning influence abroad.
Apparently if you watch the entire discussion, Trump kept reiterating that the US was willing to continue military aid.I watched the entire press conference with Zelensky. There was 40 minutes of discussion up to the argument. Most people saw at most the last ten minutes. The whole video gives the proper context.
— Richard Hanania (@RichardHanania) February 28, 2025
When I first watched the argument without the proper context, I thought it was…Quote:
I watched the entire press conference with Zelensky. There was 40 minutes of discussion up to the argument. Most people saw at most the last ten minutes. The whole video gives the proper context. When I first watched the argument without the proper context, I thought it was possible that Trump and Vance ambushed Zelensky or were even trying to humiliate him. That's not what happened.
You had 40 minutes of calm conversation. Vance made a point that didn't attack Zelensky and wasn't even addressed to him, and Zelensky clearly started the argument. In the first 40 minutes, Zelensky kept trying to go beyond what was negotiated in the deal. When Trump was asked a question, it was always "we'll see." Zelensky made blanket assertions that there would be no negotiating with Putin, and that Russia would pay for the war. When Trump said that it was a tragedy that people on both sides were dying, Zelensky interjected that the Russians were the invaders.
For his part, Trump made clear that the US would continue delivering military aid. All Zelensky had to do was remain calm for a few more minutes and they would've signed a deal. The argument started when Trump pointed out that it would be hard to make a deal if you talk about Putin the way Zelensky does. Vance interjects to make the reasonable point that Biden called Putin names and that didn't get us anywhere.
The Zelensky/Trump dynamic was calm and stable. It was when Vance spoke that Zelensky started to interrogate him. Throughout the press conference to that point, everyone was making their arguments directly to the audience. Zelensky decided to challenge Vance and ask him hostile questions. He went back to his point that Putin never sticks to ceasefires, once again implying that negotiations are pointless. Why on earth would you do this? Then came the fight we all saw.
Zelensky was minutes away from being home free, and he would have had the deal and new commitments from the Trump administration. The point Vance made was directed against Biden and the media, taking them to task for speaking in moralistic terms. This offended Zelensky, and that began the argument. I've been a fan of Zelensky up to this point, but this showed so much incompetence, if not emotional instability, that I don't see how he recovers from this. The relationship with the administration is broken. Ukraine should probably go with new leadership at this point.
I watched the whole thing too. This is a pretty good summary - the whole thing started to go sideways when Trump admonished Zelenskyy that he shouldn't say mean things about Vladimir Putin.
That turned really dang quickly, almost as though Zelensky never was going to agree to the deal. US needs to stop all funding and get out of NATO, let Europe handle its own problems with them talking such a big game
Destroying a quote but in the end Zelensky messed up the end game
Destroying a quote but in the end Zelensky messed up the end game
Majority of Americans can't name who the VP is. A good number probably don't know who the president is or how many States we have.samurai_science said:
Majority of Americans don't care about the Ukraine, this is a fact based on the elections and what people voted for. Exit polls show it
It's not that Ukraine would get nothing from the deal. If you watch/listen the full press conference, Trump is saying the US is willing to continue military aid in exchange for the mineral rights as a way to make up for the previous loans of aid (that Zelensky is claiming was a gift).
GeorgiAg said:
Elect a clown, expect a circus.
Clown that doesn't bent the knee…
K
Again..gabehcoud said:
Just watched it for the first time. Whose idea was it to put that on live tv? Trump so he could be hero on a tv? What a s show! I want to see the huge smiles that had to be on the media faces as that devolved
"WE NEED TRANSPARENCY FROM DICTATOR TRUMP!!!"
"Noooo, too much transparency!"
Nothing?Quote:
I'm not saying we are entitled to give them anything. People are attacking Zelenskyy for rejecting a deal that gives him nothing.
Right now he has nothing. With us going to the negotiating table on his behalf...he has at least some sort of leverage. But we're not going to do that for free any longer...and that's what he hates. He doesnt like that he'd be paying us, instead of us paying him (like we've done).
Without us he has zero leverage. WIth us he gains continued support, rebuilding efforts and leverage at the table with Russia. Everyone recognizes that. His own government knows it, which is why they are freaking out right now.
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