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culdeus
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In reply to permabull • 12:05p, 10/1/19
AG
hypeiv said:
HouseDivided06 said:
Is it not possible to realize it is a tragedy on BOTH sides and be empathetic for BOTH sides on this? I believe her that it was an honest, terrible mistake. You keep looking at it from the Botham Jean side, but using your own emotional appeals, imagine if Amber was your daughter or sister. You believe she made a terrible mistake, thought she was in her apartment, and believed she was acting self defense. Legitimately believed she was in danger and in her own apartment. But yet you want to cheer at her conviction? I see both sides, I see how murder was the verdict, and I also see how she could have walked given this incredibly unique set of circumstances. But to assume Botham Jean was "just another guy" to people who think that the state didn't prove beyond reasonable doubt that her mistake in fact defense was reasonable is obtuse.


I believe she honestly thought it was her apartment... I also believe she is a bully and decided she wasn't going to let someone mess up her place and went in with the intent to kill.

Even if it had been her apartment, and the same thing happened, I would still think she was a murderer. She could have easily stayed in the hallway with her gun drawn and called for backup (even if it was her apartment). She decided not to do that and that makes her a murderer in my eyes. A reasonable person would not rush into their house if they knew there was a threat in there, but she did b/c she was a tough guy with a gun.


This was all intents Gordon Keith's comments this am. And when put this way I would agree.

I just don't know that the law is perfect in this regard and you shouldn't put that in the hands of a jury you let the judge try this case imo.

This gets thrown out on appeal imo. Ianal
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PlaneCrashGuy
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In reply to double aught • 12:05p, 10/1/19
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double aught said:
What is there to not believe?


Her testimony flew in the face of the medical examiners for starters
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aggietony2010
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In reply to Know Your Enemy • 12:08p, 10/1/19
AG
Junkhead said:
LSB_2002 said:
ElephantRider said:
I agree with the verdict, but I hate that it's being twisted to be a race issue.
This case has never been anything but a race issue! Hence the celebration downtown Dallas tonight at 6:30. Are we really going to celebrate the fact that a Dallas cop is being sent to prison for murder? Really????
Pretty sure people will be celebrating what they believe to be justice for the murder of an innocent man.


Some will be celebrating that. But if you listened to the people promoting the celebration it's about more than that. This is a victory over the cops, who are the enemy. That sentiment has been running through the case from the beginning.
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to Know Your Enemy • 12:09p, 10/1/19
AG
Junkhead said:
LSB_2002 said:
ElephantRider said:
I agree with the verdict, but I hate that it's being twisted to be a race issue.
This case has never been anything but a race issue! Hence the celebration downtown Dallas tonight at 6:30. Are we really going to celebrate the fact that a Dallas cop is being sent to prison for murder? Really????
Pretty sure people will be celebrating what they believe to be justice for the murder of an innocent man.
You should look up all the statements made by Shaun King and Lee Merritt.
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Bocephus
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12:14p, 10/1/19
AG
I don't think the prosecution disproved that this was a mistake of fact.

In EVERY OTHER murder trial I have seen or heard about in Dallas County, the ADA needed a motive to charge the person with murder and convince the jury of such.

I think the jury was afraid of rioting.

Lots of reasons for appeal imo starting with not changing the venue.

Imo this fits mistake of fact perfectly. I also believe that she should be held accountable for her mistakes which is why I felt manslaughter was appropriate.

Now we get to wait and see what sentencing will be to see if there will be any riots.

I do not have a problem with the family clapping.

Dominique Alexander is still a piece of human garbage.
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Bocephus
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In reply to LSB_2002 • 12:15p, 10/1/19
AG
LSB_2002 said:
powerbelly said:
lda6339 said:
Junkhead said:
Was this trial televised? How do the people saying the prosecution didn't prove their case know all the facts as they were presented to the jury? Did you sit in every day on the trial?


I listened to it at my desk in full everyday day from Day 2 onward. I think most people did not do this and simply went with a "protect the cop" mindset.

If you listened to it, the prosecution was very convincing
Agree to disagree here.

I think they failed to prove beyond a reasonable doubt.
I'm with you on that! I honestly felt the prosecution made the defenses case for them! Strange how this one worked out!


Prosecution said in the opening statement that it was a mistake
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aggietony2010
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In reply to Bocephus • 12:16p, 10/1/19
AG
Bocephus said:
I don't think the prosecution disproved that this was a mistake of fact.

In EVERY OTHER murder trial I have seen or heard about in Dallas County, the ADA needed a motive to charge the person with murder and convince the jury of such.

I think the jury was afraid of rioting.

Lots of reasons for appeal imo starting with not changing the venue.

Imo this fits mistake of fact perfectly. I also believe that she should be held accountable for her mistakes which is why I felt manslaughter was appropriate.

Now we get to wait and see what sentencing will be to see if there will be any riots.

I do not have a problem with the family clapping.

Dominique Alexander is still a piece of human garbage.


I was wondering about this last night. This might be the first murder conviction I've ever seen where there was no motive. We know more about the Las Vegas shooters motives than we do this case.
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HouseDivided06
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In reply to PlaneCrashGuy • 12:17p, 10/1/19
AG
lda6339 said:
double aught said:
What is there to not believe?


Her testimony flew in the face of the medical examiners for starters
Flew in the face is a bit strong. From what I remember, the only thing the medical examiner had to offer for the prosecution was the angle of the bullet was downward, meaning he was crouching down or bent forward. That is far from definitive. He COULD have been sitting on the couch, or he COULD have been advancing toward her bent forward or crouched down.
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aggietony2010
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In reply to HouseDivided06 • 12:18p, 10/1/19
AG
HouseDivided06 said:
lda6339 said:
double aught said:
What is there to not believe?


Her testimony flew in the face of the medical examiners for starters
Flew in the face is a bit strong. From what I remember, the only thing the medical examiner had to offer for the prosecution was the angle of the bullet was downward, meaning he was crouching down or bent forward. That is far from definitive. He COULD have been sitting on the couch, or he COULD have been advancing toward her bent forward or crouched down.


There's no point arguing with him. He doesn't understand burden of proof, and is now convinced that all his poorly crafted arguments are correct because the jury reached the same conclusion.
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tysker
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 12:19p, 10/1/19
AG
Guitarsoup said:
Junkhead said:
LSB_2002 said:
ElephantRider said:
I agree with the verdict, but I hate that it's being twisted to be a race issue.
This case has never been anything but a race issue! Hence the celebration downtown Dallas tonight at 6:30. Are we really going to celebrate the fact that a Dallas cop is being sent to prison for murder? Really????
Pretty sure people will be celebrating what they believe to be justice for the murder of an innocent man.
You should look up all the statements made by Shaun King and Lee Merritt.
For me personally as Dallas resident its always been about the citizens of Dallas, how the police are viewed in the community and how we as Dallasites expect to treat one another. I couldn't give two ****s what people outside off Dallas think about the case. Especially a bunch of ivory tower living, non-Texans that wouldn't condescend to know or appreciate Texas laws, traditions and values.
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12:26p, 10/1/19
wbt5845
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In reply to double aught • 12:28p, 10/1/19
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double aught said:
What is there to not believe?
Her testimony. if you believed her testimony, you had to find her not guilty.
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to tysker • 12:33p, 10/1/19
AG
tysker said:
Guitarsoup said:
Junkhead said:
LSB_2002 said:
ElephantRider said:
I agree with the verdict, but I hate that it's being twisted to be a race issue.
This case has never been anything but a race issue! Hence the celebration downtown Dallas tonight at 6:30. Are we really going to celebrate the fact that a Dallas cop is being sent to prison for murder? Really????
Pretty sure people will be celebrating what they believe to be justice for the murder of an innocent man.
You should look up all the statements made by Shaun King and Lee Merritt.
For me personally as Dallas resident its always been about the citizens of Dallas, how the police are viewed in the community and how we as Dallasites expect to treat one another. I couldn't give two ****s what people outside off Dallas think about the case. Especially a bunch of ivory tower living, non-Texans that wouldn't condescend to know or appreciate Texas laws, traditions and values.
Lee Merritt lives in Dallas area and represents the Jean family.
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PlaneCrashGuy
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In reply to Bocephus • 12:33p, 10/1/19
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Bocephus said:


I think the jury was afraid of rioting.

Jury was sequestered, unlikely.
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ItsA&InotA&M
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12:34p, 10/1/19
Police in the DFW area, in many cases, because they assert the Mistake of Fact.

DA- Why did you shoot that homeowner in his garage?
Police- I though he was armed and a threat.

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double aught
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In reply to wbt5845 • 12:35p, 10/1/19
AG
wbt5845 said:
double aught said:
What is there to not believe?
Her testimony. if you believed her testimony, you had to find her not guilty.
I guess I should've said why wouldn't you believe her. She admitted to killing him and even admitted that was her intent. Everything else she said supports that.
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500,000ags
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In reply to [removed post] • 12:35p, 10/1/19
AG
I never say EOT, but EOT.
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Guitarsoup
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In reply to wbt5845 • 12:36p, 10/1/19
AG
wbt5845 said:
double aught said:
What is there to not believe?
Her testimony. if you believed her testimony, you had to find her not guilty.
What in her testimony was false?
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MW03
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12:36p, 10/1/19
AG
Mistake in Fact was only part of this fight. She could have been correct about it being her home and still not justified in the use of deadly force if the jury believed she was the aggressor, and that the use of deadly force was not necessary. If he presented no threat to her, and she was the aggressor, the homicide is not justifiable despite the fact that he is in "her" house.

That's why the prosecution hammered the "ice cream". JMO.
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culdeus
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In reply to wbt5845 • 12:36p, 10/1/19
AG
wbt5845 said:
double aught said:
What is there to not believe?
Her testimony. if you believed her testimony, you had to find her not guilty.


You mean the part of the testimony where she said she meant to kill him?
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PlaneCrashGuy
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In reply to aggietony2010 • 12:37p, 10/1/19
AG
aggietony2010 said:
HouseDivided06 said:
lda6339 said:
double aught said:
What is there to not believe?


Her testimony flew in the face of the medical examiners for starters
Flew in the face is a bit strong. From what I remember, the only thing the medical examiner had to offer for the prosecution was the angle of the bullet was downward, meaning he was crouching down or bent forward. That is far from definitive. He COULD have been sitting on the couch, or he COULD have been advancing toward her bent forward or crouched down.


There's no point arguing with him. He doesn't understand burden of proof, and is now convinced that all his poorly crafted arguments are correct because the jury reached the same conclusion.
The Medical Examiner said there was no way he was moving towards her while bent down because of her height, his height, and the angle. I know the ME testified almost a week ago but you clearly are remembering it wrong.

Regardless, the point is moot. She is a murderer, justice prevailed.

Obviously the people that were paid to decide this and have lived nothing but this for a week (sequestered) know this better than you or I, the fact that they agree with me is telling, to think otherwise is ignorance.
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wbt5845
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12:38p, 10/1/19
AG
Well, I'll say one thing - John Creuzot sure is vindicated. I thought he was an idiot going for murder - then an idiot for including a lesser charge - and then his team hit a home run.
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wbt5845
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In reply to double aught • 12:38p, 10/1/19
AG
double aught said:
wbt5845 said:
double aught said:
What is there to not believe?
Her testimony. if you believed her testimony, you had to find her not guilty.
I guess I should've said why wouldn't you believe her. She admitted to killing him and even admitted that was her intent. Everything else she said supports that.
I believed her. I'm saying the jury apparently did not.
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ElephantRider
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12:39p, 10/1/19
AG
To be fair, Creuzot is still an idiot for a myriad of other reasons.
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wbt5845
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In reply to ElephantRider • 12:41p, 10/1/19
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ElephantRider said:
To be fair, Creuzot is still an idiot for a myriad of other reasons.
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Southlake
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12:44p, 10/1/19
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Now, what do you think the sentence will be?

My guess, and what I think is fair: 20 years. With parole and Good Behavior, she's out in 5-7.

Of course, I'm just a heavy equipment operator; what do I know?
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DannyDuberstein
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12:47p, 10/1/19
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If this wasn't mistake of fact, then mistake of fact shouldn't exist.
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Grego2007
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In reply to Southlake • 12:47p, 10/1/19
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Southlake said:
Of course, I'm just a heavy equipment operator; what do I know?
the same amount as the rest of us
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Bocephus
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In reply to Guitarsoup • 12:47p, 10/1/19
AG
Guitarsoup said:
tysker said:
Guitarsoup said:
Junkhead said:
LSB_2002 said:
ElephantRider said:
I agree with the verdict, but I hate that it's being twisted to be a race issue.
This case has never been anything but a race issue! Hence the celebration downtown Dallas tonight at 6:30. Are we really going to celebrate the fact that a Dallas cop is being sent to prison for murder? Really????
Pretty sure people will be celebrating what they believe to be justice for the murder of an innocent man.
You should look up all the statements made by Shaun King and Lee Merritt.
For me personally as Dallas resident its always been about the citizens of Dallas, how the police are viewed in the community and how we as Dallasites expect to treat one another. I couldn't give two ****s what people outside off Dallas think about the case. Especially a bunch of ivory tower living, non-Texans that wouldn't condescend to know or appreciate Texas laws, traditions and values.
Lee Merritt lives in Dallas area and represents the Jean family.


I think he actually lives in DC. He is not licensed to practice law in Texas.
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DannyDuberstein
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In reply to Southlake • 12:48p, 10/1/19
AG
Pretty sure she'd do at least 10 if sentenced to 20 in Texas
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HouseDivided06
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In reply to [removed post] • 12:48p, 10/1/19
AG
SoupNazi2001 said:
Simple fact is a man was killed in his own home without doing anything wrong and justice was served. Why would a trained police officer not even stop to ask who are you or what are you doing here with her gun drawn before firing kill shots. What if that was your son who was killed in his own home?
She was a citizen and not an acting police officer when entering what she thought was her home. Her testimony is she drew her gun and said "let me see your hands! Let me see your hands!" as he approached her saying "hey! Hey!" If it was REASONABLE for her to be mistaken in fact that she thought she was in her apartment, then it would be reasonable for her to act in what she thought was self defense. The prosecution needed to prove beyond reasonable doubt that mistake of fact was not valid. The emotional appeal of "if it was your son" is a straw man. Of course I would be upset and sad and want what I thought was justice. But try it the other way. Imagine if Amber was your daughter and she legitimately thought she was in danger in her own home. Is she not allowed to neutralize the perceived threat? What if he HAD been a burglar who was armed and it WAS her apartment and she DIDN'T shoot and he killed her? Then what? The emotional appeals, while understandable, can go all sorts of different directions.
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Bocephus
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In reply to wbt5845 • 12:49p, 10/1/19
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wbt5845 said:
Well, I'll say one thing - John Creuzot sure is vindicated. I thought he was an idiot going for murder - then an idiot for including a lesser charge - and then his team hit a home run.


He's still the clown who refused to go after Sherin Matthews father. He got his scalp though. Kudos for that I guess. I have no respect for him
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wbt5845
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In reply to DannyDuberstein • 12:52p, 10/1/19
AG
DannyDuberstein said:
Pretty sure she'd do at least 10 if sentenced to 20 in Texas
That's correct, which means I think the max is 10 years, but maybe only 5.

The jury, I think, is smart enough to know the difference between the different types of murder and sentence accordingly. That's why the law gives such a wide range of punishment.
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Bocephus
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In reply to Southlake • 12:52p, 10/1/19
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Southlake said:
Now, what do you think the sentence will be?

My guess, and what I think is fair: 20 years. With parole and Good Behavior, she's out in 5-7.

Of course, I'm just a heavy equipment operator; what do I know?


Batch springs officer got 15 years for a much worse case imo. I'd say 5-10 years.
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500,000ags
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In reply to HouseDivided06 • 12:52p, 10/1/19
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You can dress up her scenario all you want. It's putting lipstick on a pig. His scenario never changes. He was in his apartment. He was not breaking any laws. Someone just walked in a pulled a gun on him.
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