My wife left her keys in the back door the other night after a long day. How does that happen?

I will be very surprised if one side or the other does not call Texas Ranger David Armstrong. That LEO is top notch and will make an outstanding witness. He is the one who recommended that Guyger be charged with manslaughter rather than murder. It was the DA that then changed the grand jury presentation to murder.

AggieC07 said:

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Has there been any insight into what she did to identify or try to identify the victim before shooting?

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I have only listened to bits and pieces of the trial and read the DMN which is notoriously inaccurate. My understanding was that she put her key in the lock and opened the door. She saw Jean in the apartment and yelled, "Hands!" A criminal would know to raise his hands up, a guy sitting in his apartment certainly would not. Jean began to walk towards her (perfectly reasonable for someone trying to figure out why a stranger has entered their apartment) and Guyger shot him once in the chest with the second shot missing him. I don't know if she realized it was his apartment then, or turned the lights on or what, but she then called 911 and had to go outside to give them the apartment number. When the police arrived the keys card/fob was still in the door and the door was open. So much for all the BS about the doors automatically shutting. DMN reported that the lock was installed incorrectly and never locked properly which is why she was able to enter.

Thanks!

Also, I found a live stream: https://dfw.cbslocal.com/2019/09/24/amber-guyger-trial-livestream-day-2/

yeah, this may not be accurate, but I heard the defense found some crazy high number, like 95 people (surely that is too high, but that's what was said), who had gone to the wrong door thinking it was theirs at some point in this complex.

schwabbin said:

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My wife left her keys in the back door the other night after a long day. How does that happen?

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I've done this before. Multiple times. I think the usual theme is that I was carrying a bunch of stuff. So I unlock, leave keys in, take stuff in, then just close the door like a dumbass without paying attention that I needed to go back and take my keys out.

Ranger David Armstrong is on the stand....

I have never, in my 2 decades as a lawyer, seen a prosecutor so steadfastly dedicated to proving that the victim was eating ice cream. Every dang witness that was in the apartment It's like he thinks it is an element of the offense.

I didn't catch the full thing but heard that part, I thought I had to be missing some context....why was that such a focus.

One of the neighbors that testified this afternoon was wearing gym shorts and a Dragonballz t-shirt. Seemed like a believable witness, just funny.
The Dallas ISD teacher/coach after him was funny because he basically said that when he hear the gun shots he was paying that high rent to avoid that stuff.
Indian guy after him dropped a unknowing "that's what she said" when referring to his wife parking on the wrong level before.
Entertaining stuff for sure on the live feed.

3rd Generation Ag said:

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I don't get how she missed a bright red door mat when her apartment had NONE.

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But it's apparently what happened. Doesn't seem that far-fetched to me. Any alternative explanations are significantly less plausible.

If I recall, she was carrying her vest, lunch bag, and some other crap. Might make you less inclined to notice something like the mat.

DannyDuberstein said:

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If I recall, she was carrying her vest, lunch bag, and some other crap. Might make you less inclined to notice something like the mat.

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Valid point some of the jury might relate to.

3rd Generation Ag said:

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I do think being a police officer had her make a very bad choice. I had secruity training that said the last thing you want to do if you get home (as a female) and your door is open is go into the house. You step out and call the police. If she had reacted that way, two lives would be going on as normal. I also think she is personally a selfish bad word because from the onset she seemed in the released tape to be way more worried about herseslf and her job than about the man bleeding out at her bullet. That is not a crime but will make her a less sympathetic witness.

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Yeah - the responding officers are administering treatment to the victim and shes making phone calls. Not sympathetic at all. I bet she will be very tearful and full of 'remorse' on the stand, though.

Bocephus said:

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AggieC07 said:

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Has there been any insight into what she did to identify or try to identify the victim before shooting?

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I have only listened to bits and pieces of the trial and read the DMN which is notoriously inaccurate. My understanding was that she put her key in the lock and opened the door. She saw Jean in the apartment and yelled, "Hands!" A criminal would know to raise his hands up, a guy sitting in his apartment certainly would not. Jean began to walk towards her (perfectly reasonable for someone trying to figure out why a stranger has entered their apartment) and Guyger shot him once in the chest with the second shot missing him. I don't know if she realized it was his apartment then, or turned the lights on or what, but she then called 911 and had to go outside to give them the apartment number. When the police arrived the keys card/fob was still in the door and the door was open. So much for all the BS about the doors automatically shutting. DMN reported that the lock was installed incorrectly and never locked properly which is why she was able to enter.

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So she said, he began to walk and her training told her to shoot multiple shots?

double aught said:

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3rd Generation Ag said:

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I don't get how she missed a bright red door mat when her apartment had NONE.

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But it's apparently what happened. Doesn't seem that far-fetched to me. Any alternative explanations are significantly less plausible.

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Lived in a very similar apartment for a while. Janitorial staff mopping the stained concrete hallways had moved my neighbor's floor mat in front of mine at least once that I recall

3rd Generation Ag said:

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I do think being a police officer had her make a very bad choice. I had secruity training that said the last thing you want to do if you get home (as a female) and your door is open is go into the house. You step out and call the police. If she had reacted that way, two lives would be going on as normal. I also think she is personally a selfish bad word because from the onset she seemed in the released tape to be way more worried about herseslf and her job than about the man bleeding out at her bullet. That is not a crime but will make her a less sympathetic witness.

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She didn't realize the door was open. Apparently it was closed but was not latched/locked all the way. She put her key in to gain access and then she was able to open the door. So she obviously thought that it was her apartment bc her key seemingly worked. She didn't walk up to the door and see that it was open. If she had, I would hope she would have acted differently bc she wouldn't have been so surprised by someone being in the apartment.

lt230 said:

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double aught said:

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3rd Generation Ag said:

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I don't get how she missed a bright red door mat when her apartment had NONE.

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But it's apparently what happened. Doesn't seem that far-fetched to me. Any alternative explanations are significantly less plausible.

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Lived in a very similar apartment for a while. Janitorial staff mopping the stained concrete hallways had moved my neighbor's floor mat in front of mine at least once that I recall

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And if your neighbor had walked into your dark unlocked apartment and killed you, your neighbor should be allowed a lesser sentence due to misplaced rugs?

Can someone explain how these door locks are supposed to work? There is a physical key and a fob key? So a deadbolt by key and an automatic knob lock by fob?

Would there be a civil case for the family against the complex if they knew their locks were deficient?

tysker said:

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lt230 said:

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double aught said:

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3rd Generation Ag said:

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I don't get how she missed a bright red door mat when her apartment had NONE.

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But it's apparently what happened. Doesn't seem that far-fetched to me. Any alternative explanations are significantly less plausible.

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Lived in a very similar apartment for a while. Janitorial staff mopping the stained concrete hallways had moved my neighbor's floor mat in front of mine at least once that I recall

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And if your neighbor had walked into your dark unlocked apartment and killed you, your neighbor should be allowed a lesser sentence due to misplaced rugs?

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Unknown, not my call

Upstairs neighbor did attempt entry a few times while I was there out of claimed confusion, but the lock was engaged each time

mavsfan4ever said:

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3rd Generation Ag said:

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I do think being a police officer had her make a very bad choice. I had secruity training that said the last thing you want to do if you get home (as a female) and your door is open is go into the house. You step out and call the police. If she had reacted that way, two lives would be going on as normal. I also think she is personally a selfish bad word because from the onset she seemed in the released tape to be way more worried about herseslf and her job than about the man bleeding out at her bullet. That is not a crime but will make her a less sympathetic witness.

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She didn't realize the door was open. Apparently it was closed but was not latched/locked all the way. She put her key in to gain access and then she was able to open the door. So she obviously thought that it was her apartment bc her key seemingly worked. She didn't walk up to the door and see that it was open. If she had, I would hope she would have acted differently bc she wouldn't have been so surprised by someone being in the apartment.

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Now I'm confused. The Musers just said that the door was ajar. I've akways heard that it was "ajar" but not visibly ajar. And that always made sense. They made it seem like it was visibly open. I'm assuming that's not true. Anyone know?

The reporting on all of this seems to be all over the place.

My guess is the deadbolt was out to keep the door from completely latching which would require a key to get back in. Maybe he just did a trash run or was expecting company

lt230 said:

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tysker said:

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lt230 said:

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double aught said:

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3rd Generation Ag said:

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I don't get how she missed a bright red door mat when her apartment had NONE.

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But it's apparently what happened. Doesn't seem that far-fetched to me. Any alternative explanations are significantly less plausible.

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Lived in a very similar apartment for a while. Janitorial staff mopping the stained concrete hallways had moved my neighbor's floor mat in front of mine at least once that I recall

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And if your neighbor had walked into your dark unlocked apartment and killed you, your neighbor should be allowed a lesser sentence due to misplaced rugs?

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Unknown, not my call

Upstairs neighbor did attempt entry a few times while I was there out of claimed confusion, but the lock was engaged each time

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Far enough. Having lived in apartments throughout most of my 20s and 30s. I've experienced many variations of 'wrong apartment' and even opened the door to the wrong apartment once (maybe twice). It happens. But in most every case, your 'spidey sense' goes off during the walk down the hallway and upon entering the space telling you, this is different and not typical. It's the subsequent events that determine the appropriate response.

proc said:

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Somebody is going to come in at some point as a witness for the defense and talk about police training.

I asked two different police trainers in departments other than Dallas, they both work in SWAT teams as well. If they are in a dark room, hands free and are surprised by an advancing suspect, their training is not to draw their flashlight, or their taser, or to run out the door. There are too many variables that could go wrong. They are trained to draw and fire their pistol. They are trained until that is their default reaction.

If 1 juror believes that Amber really thought that she was in her apartment, they are not going to convict her of murder and there will be a mistrial. If all 12 believe that, and the DA does not ask for a lesser charge of manslaughter, or criminally negligent homicide, Amber is going to walk.

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If this is the case, the public perception will be that any LEO can accidentally enter a dark space, even while off duty, and kill a person, without criminal recourse, because that's what they are trained to do. I'm not sure how this ends well for the DPD.

3rd Generation Ag said:

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I don't get how she missed a bright red door mat when her apartment had NONE.

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That and the 4th floor garage being open air should have given her an indication.

Also interested in the lock data, doesn't sound like there was much chance she went to her apartment first, but will be interesting to see this explained.

nai06 said:

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I keep coming back to the undisputed fact that she murdered a man in his own home.

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I am with you, nai. It's hard to walk back from that point, and I would be hard pressed to go any other direction if I were a juror. Murder still seems like a high bar that I can't imagine every juror agreeing with though.

proc said:

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Somebody is going to come in at some point as a witness for the defense and talk about police training.

I asked two different police trainers in departments other than Dallas, they both work in SWAT teams as well. If they are in a dark room, hands free and are surprised by an advancing suspect, their training is not to draw their flashlight, or their taser, or to run out the door. There are too many variables that could go wrong. They are trained to draw and fire their pistol. They are trained until that is their default reaction.

If 1 juror believes that Amber really thought that she was in her apartment, they are not going to convict her of murder and there will be a mistrial. If all 12 believe that, and the DA does not ask for a lesser charge of manslaughter, or criminally negligent homicide, Amber is going to walk.

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And the DA will be an idiot if he doesn't ask for inclusion of manslaughter. The bar set for him in a mistake of fact defense is so high there's way too much a possibility at least one juror believes her story.

Even with manslaughter, she'll be severely punished for a long time and never be a cop again.