Antoninus said:

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pacecar02 said:

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as a person with firearms training im telling you ….

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YES. that is exactly the point. You are per person with specialized training and experience. You are not the "ordinary prudent person." That is a term with a very specific legal meaning.

Quote:

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For the record, I taught children …y

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and for the last several pages, I feel like I've been doing exactly the same thing

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a person being unaware does not alleviate them of their responsibility

just like ignorance of the law is not a valid defense





in all likelihood Alec is not an ordinary person by your definition

This was not his first time around firearms

He's certainly spoken about them

Rockdoc said:

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Dude your arrogance just won't let you stop digging that hole deeper.

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come July, you will see that there is no hole.

No, I take that back. You will insist that there is a hole, Doubtless dug by Soros DAs and biased juries.

Antoninus said:

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Rockdoc said:

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Dude your arrogance just won't let you stop digging that hole deeper.

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come July, you will see that there is no hole.

No, I take that back. You will insist that there is a hole, Doubtless dug by Soros DAs and biased juries.

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Arrogance yet again. Nobody ever said libs send libs to jail.
Here's your shovel.

Rockdoc said:

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obody ever said libs send libs to jail.

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"biased juries and Soros DAs." Perfectly on script. Perhaps you can get a job as an extra on the Rust reshoot.

look, maybe you know a lot about rocks. But you clearly know essentially nothing about the law. I've tried to help you understand, but you clearly already know too much to learn anything more. Your brain is full

Have a good day.

Old Army Ghost said:

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you should go take a gun safety class fir our safety

being so reckless with guns is not reasonable and is not safe

you scare me

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Wait until you hear that he wants to distribute childlike sex dolls to pedophiles and pederasts.

Here's your shovel!

Fightin_Aggie said:

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Antoninus said:

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pacecar02 said:

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as a former firearms instructor, every individual is responsible for the firearms in their hands/procession

You verify whatever you have not witnessed. you never take someone's word

Movie procedures aside, you can't offload your personal responsibility over a firewarm.

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this is probably pointless, but I will try anyway.

you were applying the standard of "a person with firearms training." You are not applying the standard of the "ordinary reasonable person." They are very different concepts.

whether you like it or not, a jury is going to find that an ordinary and reasonable person is justified in relying upon a paid expert regarding whether a given firearm is in a safe condition to be handled.

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There are simple rules for fire arms

1. Treat every gun like it is loaded
2. Don't point the gun at anything you don't want to destroy and/or kill
3. Never put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to fire
4. Know your target and what is in front of and behind your target

I think you are biased in your argument.

Those rules are simple to understand and teach and are the responsibility of anyone who handles a firearm and I think any reasonable person would agree that if a few minutes of training are what are needed to safely handle a firearm and save a life then it is reasonable and required that a workplace do those trainings. Especially someone who is in a ownership/management position.

Accidents do happen and unfortunately people can get hurt when an accident happens. Put the facts as I know them here indicate that these was an accident that was due to negligence on multiple people's part and one big factor in this negligence was Alec Baldwin.

1. In his handling of the firearm
2. His lack of oversight for training on the set
3. Lack of enforcing and following common and common sense gun safety protocols and rules

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Now that FBI got involved and said the trigger mechanism wasn't broken, I've thought how this guy pulled this off. It's a single action revolver he was sitting there playing with the thing , moving it around and and he pulled back the hammer, he assumed the hammer would lock while he had his finger pushed back on the trigger clearing the lock. When he released the hammer he thought the safety would catch it. Or he just flat out pulled the hammer back and when he moved the pistol around he pulled the trigger and shot both victims. Again when he took charge of the pistol the responsibility falls on him. I can see the plea going either way depending of the judge and jury makeup, but the guy has an ego and can't shut up.

.45 Colt is a very common round.
Not hard to find at all.

.45 Colt +P is even readily available.

Shoefly! said:

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Fightin_Aggie said:

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Antoninus said:

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pacecar02 said:

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as a former firearms instructor, every individual is responsible for the firearms in their hands/procession

You verify whatever you have not witnessed. you never take someone's word

Movie procedures aside, you can't offload your personal responsibility over a firewarm.

---

this is probably pointless, but I will try anyway.

you were applying the standard of "a person with firearms training." You are not applying the standard of the "ordinary reasonable person." They are very different concepts.

whether you like it or not, a jury is going to find that an ordinary and reasonable person is justified in relying upon a paid expert regarding whether a given firearm is in a safe condition to be handled.

---

There are simple rules for fire arms

1. Treat every gun like it is loaded
2. Don't point the gun at anything you don't want to destroy and/or kill
3. Never put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to fire
4. Know your target and what is in front of and behind your target

I think you are biased in your argument.

Those rules are simple to understand and teach and are the responsibility of anyone who handles a firearm and I think any reasonable person would agree that if a few minutes of training are what are needed to safely handle a firearm and save a life then it is reasonable and required that a workplace do those trainings. Especially someone who is in a ownership/management position.

Accidents do happen and unfortunately people can get hurt when an accident happens. Put the facts as I know them here indicate that these was an accident that was due to negligence on multiple people's part and one big factor in this negligence was Alec Baldwin.

1. In his handling of the firearm
2. His lack of oversight for training on the set
3. Lack of enforcing and following common and common sense gun safety protocols and rules

---

Now that FBI got involved and said the trigger mechanism wasn't broken, I've thought how this guy pulled this off. It's a single action revolver he was sitting there playing with the thing , moving it around and and he pulled back the hammer, he assumed the hammer would lock while he had his finger pushed back on the trigger clearing the lock. When he released the hammer he thought the safety would catch it. Or he just flat out pulled the hammer back and when he moved the pistol around he pulled the trigger and shot both victims. Again when he took charge of the pistol the responsibility falls on him. I can see the plea going either way depending of the judge and jury makeup, but the guy has an ego and can't shut up.

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Pulling the hammer back is part of the "quick draw" motion. Likely the part he was practicing. However, for practicing cowboy action shooting techniques the cylinder can be completely removed from the frame on many modern replicas without requiring any tools.

I'm surprised they don't have dummy cylinders that physically cannot hold projectiles, or plugged cylinders that have no through path to the forcing cone. Heck. Even take the firing pin off. It's only pinned to the hammer.

For what they were doing, which was basically a lighting test, he didn't even need a gun. This was just all around arrogance and carelessness on a lot of people's part, including and especially Baldwin.

The armorer was an idiot. She and others on the film were putting live rounds in the prop guns and shooting crap after hours.

To even have live rounds on the same set shows she didn't know the job she was hired to do

So who was responsible for hiring and overseeing the armoire?

Antoninus said:

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aggiehawg said:

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AtticusMatlock said:

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Verdict reached. To be announced soon. Just 2.5 hours.

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She's toast.

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I feel a little bit badly for Ms. Gutierrez-Reed. If Alec Baldwin were not involved in this case, which made it political, I don't think she would ever have been prosecuted.

The girl is collateral damage to his political activism.

And before even reaching this third paragraph, someone was already typing "what about feeling bad for Halima Hutchins?" Yes, I obviously feel badly for her and her family, too. This was a tragic accident.

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This isn't political. Her carelessness and incompetence got someone killed. That's going to get prosecuted every time.

She was in charge of the weapons and ammunition on set and primarily responsible for ensuring that only blanks or dummy rounds were ever in the gun, and she failed miserably at that. She was also at least partially responsible for ensuring people on set followed proper firearms safety protocols when handling weapons, and she failed at that, too.

If she had taken her job seriously, Halyna Hutchins would still be alive, regardless of how much ****ing around Alec Baldwin did. She deserves what she's getting.

jt2hunt said:

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So who was responsible for hiring and overseeing the armoire?

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Sounds like set decoration to me.

jt2hunt said:

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So who was responsible for hiring and overseeing the armoire?

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Tom Robinson. The hiring was a real bust.

Seriously, I don't think that anyone has been able to sort-out who was responsible for what on that production. Sounds like chaos.

I didn't blow up or call you a Lib.

I made an argument.

Shoefly! said:

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Fightin_Aggie said:

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Antoninus said:

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pacecar02 said:

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as a former firearms instructor, every individual is responsible for the firearms in their hands/procession

You verify whatever you have not witnessed. you never take someone's word

Movie procedures aside, you can't offload your personal responsibility over a firewarm.

---

this is probably pointless, but I will try anyway.

you were applying the standard of "a person with firearms training." You are not applying the standard of the "ordinary reasonable person." They are very different concepts.

whether you like it or not, a jury is going to find that an ordinary and reasonable person is justified in relying upon a paid expert regarding whether a given firearm is in a safe condition to be handled.

---

There are simple rules for fire arms

1. Treat every gun like it is loaded
2. Don't point the gun at anything you don't want to destroy and/or kill
3. Never put your finger on the trigger until you are ready to fire
4. Know your target and what is in front of and behind your target

I think you are biased in your argument.

Those rules are simple to understand and teach and are the responsibility of anyone who handles a firearm and I think any reasonable person would agree that if a few minutes of training are what are needed to safely handle a firearm and save a life then it is reasonable and required that a workplace do those trainings. Especially someone who is in a ownership/management position.

Accidents do happen and unfortunately people can get hurt when an accident happens. Put the facts as I know them here indicate that these was an accident that was due to negligence on multiple people's part and one big factor in this negligence was Alec Baldwin.

1. In his handling of the firearm
2. His lack of oversight for training on the set
3. Lack of enforcing and following common and common sense gun safety protocols and rules

---

Now that FBI got involved and said the trigger mechanism wasn't broken, I've thought how this guy pulled this off. It's a single action revolver he was sitting there playing with the thing , moving it around and and he pulled back the hammer, he assumed the hammer would lock while he had his finger pushed back on the trigger clearing the lock. When he released the hammer he thought the safety would catch it. Or he just flat out pulled the hammer back and when he moved the pistol around he pulled the trigger and shot both victims. Again when he took charge of the pistol the responsibility falls on him. I can see the plea going either way depending of the judge and jury makeup, but the guy has an ego and can't shut up.

---

This is why I can see him getting convicted. He had to have fired that gun. He might not have meant to because he didn't understand what he was doing, but he definitely did. He also should have known what he was doing. Reportedly lots of safety briefings on weapons and weapon safety that he failed to attend or didn't pay attention to. People have been killed by prop guns even loaded with blanks, and they're not something you screw around with. Baldwin's attitude towards safety, especially gun safety, was incredibly cavalier, reckless, and a contributing factor.

But for the armorer's carelessness in letting and keeping live ammunition on set his actions might have meant nothing, but all of the safety precautions and procedures he neglected and violated were put in place for this exact possibility. Had he followed the proper protocols, the armorer's carelessness would have been for naught. BOTH of them had to do very stupid things for someone to get killed.

I completely disagree with your blaming the prosecutions on politics. Someone was injured and someone died because of a gun. This is always going to lead to investigations and prosecutions, regardless of the jurisdiction.

You keep claiming the prosecutions are due to right wingers who hate Baldwin

I continue to remind you that this is a county that voted 76% Biden. They give no ******* about right wing outrage

jt2hunt said:

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So who was responsible for hiring and overseeing the armoire?

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The costume designer?

ABATTBQ11 said:

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BOTH of them had to do very stupid things for someone to get killed.

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I'm sure most of us have heard the "Swiss cheese" accident theory. It states that many accidents are like stacks of Swiss cheese slices. There are holes in every slice, and it usually takes a rare event for all the holes to line up where something can go all the way through.

This tragedy should not have happened, because all the factors required were like multiple slices of cheese, and nothing should have gotten through

It appears that the philosophy on this set was to simply throw out most of the cheese, and one slice was enough

CanyonAg77 said:

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You keep claiming the prosecutions are due to right wingers who hate Baldwin

I continue to remind you that this is a county that voted 76% Biden. They give no ******* about right wing outrage

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Tourism is a HUGE part of NM economy, and half of those tourists are from the "Right." But a tourism-dependent state is going to be very careful about its "image" in general.

They got a LOT of bad press (mostly from the Rightwing Press) when they initially did not charge him and then when they dismissed the first indictment.

Frankly, the non-prosecution and then dismissal were framed (by the Rightwing Press) as being political, and I think that the state felt compelled to appoint a Special Prosecutor (who is incidentally a Republican) and to eventually pursue charges ... to appear non-partisan.

Appointing a GOP Special Prosecutor was a pretty savvy move, TBH. And I think that pragmatically she had to pursue an indictment once appointed, even though I suspect that she does not really expect to get a conviction.. In a lot of ways, it parallels the Rittenhouse prosecution, where I don't think he prosecution realistically expected a conviction, but still felt compelled to prosecute. (No, I DID NOT say that they are the "same." Just that there are a number of parallels. Not singling you out, but some people have trouble with the concept of an analogy.)

Apparently they think the bullet made its own hole through the cheese.

Gutierrez has just been sentenced to the maximum 18 months in prison. The judge added on a violent felony rider, which means she has to serve 85% of the sentence.

Whatever empathy I had for her completely went away when her jail phone calls were revealed. She not only has no remorse for what happened, she bragged about how easy jail was and how much fun she was having. She called the jury "f----- re-----," called the prosecutor a "b----" and accused the judge of being bought off. Even during her allocution statement today, she spent eighty percent of the one minute statement talking about herself.

AtticusMatlock said:

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Gutierrez has just been sentenced to the maximum 18 months in prison. The judge added on a violent felony rider, which means she has to serve 85% of the sentence.

Whatever empathy I had for her completely went away when her jail phone calls were revealed. She not only has no remorse for what happened, she bragged about how easy jail was and how much fun she was having. She called the jury "f----- re-----" and accused the judge of being bought off. Even during her allocution statement today, she spent eighty percent of the one minute statement talking about herself.

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let's see how much fun she has in life as a "convicted felon"

AtticusMatlock said:

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Gutierrez has just been sentenced to the maximum 18 months in prison. The judge added on a violent felony rider, which means she has to serve 85% of the sentence.

Whatever empathy I had for her completely went away when her jail phone calls were revealed. She not only has no remorse for what happened, she bragged about how easy jail was and how much fun she was having. She called the jury "f----- re-----," called the prosecutor a "b----" and accused the judge of being bought off. Even during her allocution statement today, she spent eighty percent of the one minute statement talking about herself.

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Didn't her lawyer explain to her that her jail calls would be recorded AND played in court during her sentencing?

Tell me again why movies are using real firearms.

What else do they use that's real?

She didn't have the greatest lawyer although I can now see his difficulty in having her as a client.

AtticusMatlock said:

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Gutierrez has just been sentenced to the maximum 18 months in prison. The judge added on a violent felony rider, which means she has to serve 85% of the sentence.

Whatever empathy I had for her completely went away when her jail phone calls were revealed. She not only has no remorse for what happened, she bragged about how easy jail was and how much fun she was having. She called the jury "f----- re-----," called the prosecutor a "b----" and accused the judge of being bought off. Even during her allocution statement today, she spent eighty percent of the one minute statement talking about herself.

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She was being held in the county jail before sentencing. It will be much different in the state penitentiary in Santa Fe. I have seen that prison for a case that arose after the deadly riots that happened in the early 80s.

TexasRebel said:

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Tell me again why movies are using real firearms.

What else do they use that's real?

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Depending on the situation and shot needed they will use real firearms to fire blanks, modified real firearms which aren't capable of firing, or completely fake firearms.

As the producer and essentially the boss of the set, Baldwin insisted on using real firearms. He's on video multiple times pretending to be some sort of gun bad ass between takes and playing around with the guns in a dangerous manner.

They also use real horses, which incidentally cause way more set injuries than guns.

The horses are at least credited as actors and have the ability to make decisions.

torrid said:

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AtticusMatlock said:

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Gutierrez has just been sentenced to the maximum 18 months in prison. The judge added on a violent felony rider, which means she has to serve 85% of the sentence.

Whatever empathy I had for her completely went away when her jail phone calls were revealed. She not only has no remorse for what happened, she bragged about how easy jail was and how much fun she was having. She called the jury "f----- re-----," called the prosecutor a "b----" and accused the judge of being bought off. Even during her allocution statement today, she spent eighty percent of the one minute statement talking about herself.

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Didn't her lawyer explain to her that her jail calls would be recorded AND played in court during her sentencing?

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How can anyone is this day and age NOT know that jail/prison phones are recorded?

Also saw this. Model, really? I mean she's not ugly by any means, but modeling?

Quote:

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Sommer slammed Gutierrez Reed's jailhouse calls, pointing out that the armorer spoke to someone about how "this is messing up her modeling career."

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annie88 said:

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torrid said:

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AtticusMatlock said:

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Gutierrez has just been sentenced to the maximum 18 months in prison. The judge added on a violent felony rider, which means she has to serve 85% of the sentence.

Whatever empathy I had for her completely went away when her jail phone calls were revealed. She not only has no remorse for what happened, she bragged about how easy jail was and how much fun she was having. She called the jury "f----- re-----," called the prosecutor a "b----" and accused the judge of being bought off. Even during her allocution statement today, she spent eighty percent of the one minute statement talking about herself.

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Didn't her lawyer explain to her that her jail calls would be recorded AND played in court during her sentencing?

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How can anyone is this day and age NOT know that jail/prison phones are recorded?

Also saw this. Model, really? I mean she's not ugly by any means, but modeling?

Quote:

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Sommer slammed Gutierrez Reed's jailhouse calls, pointing out that the armorer spoke to someone about how "this is messing up her modeling career."

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They actually cleaned her up quite a bit for her court appearances, but yeah still not a model.

Quote:

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"I find that what you did constitutes a serious, violent offense," Sommer said following the sentencing. "It was committed in a physically violent manner. A fatal gunshot done with your recklessness in the face of knowledge that your acts were reasonably likely to result in serious harm."

"You were the armorer, the one that's to be between a safe weapon and a weapon that could kill someone. You alone turned a safe weapon into a lethal weapon. But for you, Mrs. Hutchins would be alive, a husband would have his partner and a little boy would have his mother. Please take her."

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Um, that might help Baldwin.

Quote:

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safe weapon

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