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Westworld Season 4

59,064 Views | 777 Replies | Last: 3 yr ago by oragator
Rocagnante
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AG
Maybe I'll give this season another viewing at some point. I'm sure it's better the second time around because you know what's coming and certain events will carry the impact that Nolan/Joy wanted.

I don't know.

I can give Lucas 377 minutes of my time and get Star Wars, ESB and RotJ. Or I can give Nolan/Joy 436 minutes and get WestWorld season 4.
CC09LawAg
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If my understanding is correct, Hale tells host William that she based him off her code and wrote in parts of William, and the William parts slowly took over until he essentially became the MIB.

Maybe I interpreted that wrong though.
TCTTS
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Good point. Just a bit more dialogue here and there could have solved so much. This is the rare instance where I didn't need to see more, I needed to be told me. And they just didn't. For seemingly no reason other than incompetence.
TCTTS
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AG
That's how I interpreted that as well.
bobinator
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William actually said that himself, but yes.

Somewhere in there is an interesting thing to explore about how the only way to create stable beings is for them to be part human and part host or something. Pure host-created-hosts have some issues, hosts based completely off humans have issues, but hybrids don't, or something.
Rocagnante
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TCTTS said:

That's how I interpreted that as well.


Me too. I think all the hosts today are based off her code to some degree.
Brian Earl Spilner
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While I get the themes they were going for, for me they just were not executed well.
Brian Earl Spilner
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bobinator said:

I think one of the largest missteps of this season is the audience having ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what "transcending" means for the hosts. Should we feel happy for those that reach that point? Why would they want to do it? Why would they not want to do it?

There was some dialogue about Halores being sad that the hosts spent so much time in the "human cities," what other option did they have? Was there some kind of host eden out in the desert or something?

Like I don't think we understood the "real world" of this future enough to care about anything in it. Are there other rebels? Why are these ones even allowed to exist?
Exactly. SO many things are never fully explained, and yet we're expected to care. The outliers, transcending, hell, all of humanity supposedly having ended.
Rocagnante
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Brian Earl Spilner said:

bobinator said:

I think one of the largest missteps of this season is the audience having ABSOLUTELY NO IDEA what "transcending" means for the hosts. Should we feel happy for those that reach that point? Why would they want to do it? Why would they not want to do it?

There was some dialogue about Halores being sad that the hosts spent so much time in the "human cities," what other option did they have? Was there some kind of host eden out in the desert or something?

Like I don't think we understood the "real world" of this future enough to care about anything in it. Are there other rebels? Why are these ones even allowed to exist?
Exactly. SO many things are never fully explained, and yet we're expected to care. The outliers, transcending, hell, all of humanity supposedly having ended.


I don't think they had a clue that these are things a sci-fi fan would want to know. So easily taken care of with so little screen time it's remarkable really they didn't go there.
bobinator
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AG
I think even saying "sci-fi fan" is taking them off the hook.

Great shows are based on characters and great episodes are based on the stakes and situations with those characters.

This show already struggled with stakes because people keep coming back to life, but then this season didn't even have any great characters.

Ford, Bernard, Dolores, Teddy, Maeve, even like Sizemore, Hector, etc, ... this show had great characters. Now they're either all dead or on their like fourth iteration of the original.

Our main characters this season were Halores, who sucked, BotWilliam, whose whole character arc ended in "everyone should die", Caleb, which... I dunno what was even the point of that entire character? Like they signed Aaron Paul to a two-season deal and felt like they had to use him or something.

I'd argue our best characters this season were Dolores/Christina and Teddy, and one of those characters invented the other one and didn't interact with any of the others.
Rocagnante
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This finale is aging like milk for me. I'm irritated because there is only a finite amount of resources Hollywood will spend on epic sci-fi movies/shows and when this happens it makes it harder for the next one to be approved.

Thank God that Villeneuve nailed Dune and we'll get to see part II.
bobinator
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I think that's why I'm as disappointed as I am also. Also this season was so good early on.

It's like Nolan and Joy have 75% of a good idea.
Rocagnante
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bobinator said:

I think that's why I'm as disappointed as I am also. Also this season was so good early on.

It's like Nolan and Joy have 75% of a good idea.


They should team up with Benioff and Weiss and teach a class at USC.
TCTTS
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I think one of the problems is that it's been more Joy than Nolan these past couple of season. Nolan was heavily involved in seasons one and two, wrote a lot himself, etc. But somewhere between seasons two and three is when I think they signed their deal with Amazon, and I got the impression that while still involved with the show, Nolan peeled off a bit and began servicing the Amazon deal as well, developing their next couple of series there, while Joy became the point person on Westworld. I actually like her a lot, and think she's super smart, but I get the impression that she wasn't quite ready to take the reigns, her and Nolan became spread too thin, etc, and the show suffered for it.
BBRex
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I agree. It felt sort of like when you're writing an email about processes you know intimately and accidentally leave out parts because you know it and it makes sense to you, but the person who gets the email is lost.
Rocagnante
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AG
Good description. Or like when you first start at a new company and are in a meeting where everyone is throwing around company specific acronyms and terms like you know them already. Afterwards you go look some up or ask a colleague to make sure you didn't miss anything important.
PatAg
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All disliking the end of the season aside, this season had a lot of really cool sci-fi moments in it. So I will attempt to focus on those. It's written in my cells to do that.
Definitely Not A Cop
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Yeah, for all the *****ing I've done, specifically about MiB, him listening to the original Man In Black before murdering two hosts was one of the perfect encapsulations of how much of a badass he has been the entire show.
veryfuller
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AG
I'll start by saying if they make a 5th season, I'll watch it.

BUT

I'm pretty disappointed in this show. The first 2 seasons created some pretty great characters who had varying motivations that were easy to track and that they brought into conflict in interesting ways. Even though the plot was a mess in season 3, the characters were not.

This season just had things happening for "reasons" and moved our characters from one investigation to another without really giving them any motivations or development. Take Charlotte (or Halores or whatever we are calling her), she had an interesting arc, when you step back, moving from world domination to letting it go and literally disappearing as ash from her hands, but the storytelling did absolutely nothing to really delve into that at all. She was just mad all the time and saying "I built this world for more!" without ever really fleshing out those ideas.

Barnard, Maeve, Caleb, MiB, all have similar things going on this season.

Its like they were so into obfuscation OVER even their characters. In previous seasons they at least tried to have the investigation/macguffins themselves at least reveal more about the characters as they went along. This season was not that.

In all honesty, this show has gone the way LOST did.

I was thinking back to season 1 and 2 and how into I was because it was great sci-fi with interesting characters and stakes. The wheels have come off, but I hope they can maybe restart and wrap things up with season 5 in a way that is more character focused.
DannyDuberstein
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Officially out whether they cancel or not. It's just a confusing mess with disjointed character motivations, and at this point, they've killed and resurrected characters so many times that I don't care what happens with any of them. The world ended. The world didn't end. Some world ended. Whatever. They busted my give-a-damn
GreasenUSA
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veryfuller said:

In all honesty, this show has gone the way LOST did.
I had been thinking the opposite. LOST may not have answered all the mysteries, but at least it cared about its characters.

Westworld, increasingly, doesn't seem to give a **** about its characters.
cr0wbar
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As I've stewed on the finale - it pisses me off even more. To have this amount of budget to drop such a turd of a S4 and S3 on us is embarrassing. They got too cute and tried to timeline themselves out of what's real and not real, and a fake Teddy coming in to Cristina's pearl to help her remember who she is. Then Clementine to drop a "No- you'll tell me AFTER I kill you" followed up by Cookie's "WRONG - I had one last bullet"

by the way- WGAF about Cookie or Caleb's cancer-stricken wife. Maeve comes back to get killed immediately by a fake MIB (OR IS IT?!) because humanity is also an infection and infecting the hosts, who are now human, who are now BACK in WestWorld in the sublime for one final test for humanity's redemption.

Feels like a fever dream of a college freshman after he decided to drop 5 grams of magic shrooms. **** Jonathan Nolan and Lisa Joy. They can seriously EAD
bobinator
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You can pick any one character and their story is a microcosm of what went wrong this season, but Halores is probably the best example. I don't get anywhere about where her character went this season. She went from LITERALLY CONTROLLING THE ENTIRE WORLD to killing herself by a river and it didn't register emotionally at all when she did it.
Rocagnante
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I'm not that far. This season definitely a let down at the finish but it's still sci-fi and better than most shows. I'm in for season 5 if we get one. Maybe Arnold will wake up in that hotel all dusty again and season 4 was just one of his possibilities in the sublime and season 5 is the REAL conclusion.

Raised By Wolves and Foundation on AppleTV are both hard science fiction shows. Those tend to go cerebral and artsy at times. Give Nolan/Joy something like that to run with. Unfortunately hard sci-fi doesn't tend to draw in the viewers.

GreasenUSA
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Yeah, at this point, I'm disappointed that Raised By Wolves was canceled, while Westworld gets to continue on.
cr0wbar
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I enjoyed Foundation and RbW. I agree that heady SciFi is hard to come by. If this was 2 seasons ala Vice Principals route, this would've been a top 5 series IMO.

Just got burnt out with the human/host/human carousel and my interest in the characters wanned because of it. If I need to study a character pearl roadmap each episode (thanks TC) the storytelling is underwhelming. But to each their own!

If you haven't dipped into Severance, that's a fun, fresh Sci-fi on AppleTV as well
Rocagnante
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Severance is great! I almost watched it with a girl! (my wife until she made fun of me)

Have to give it a chance but after a couple episodes it really finds its footing and the payoff is worth it. THAT is how you stick the landing on a season finale.
Brian Earl Spilner
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LOST only dipped in season 3, temporarily, then quickly recovered in the latter half of the season once they got their end date. Season 4 was damn good for being a shorter season, hell it contained maybe the best stretch of the whole show. And honestly the final season had its issues early on but they really landed the plane emotionally. (Pun intended.)
Max Power
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I watched the finale last night and I'm really confused. There was a lot I loved at the beginning of the season but it just didn't feel like they got what they were aiming for...whatever that is. I don't know if most of the humans in the world are dead at this point, or hosts. Was the world that kept getting shown the actual world that the hosts had fully integrated into or was this show taking place in a version of Westworld? Was the tear in the skyline at the sublime showing the way in/out of Westworld like we saw in a previous season or something else? Is the world as a whole even aware of what's going on in this show, or is this a self-contained environment? Did we even see any actual humans in this season? I ask that because perhaps Jessie wasn't really there, I could see the entirety of what was happening not being part of reality, which would be really disappointing. The show is mainly interesting if there are humans and hosts interacting.

I need closure so I'll definitely watch the next season but I definitely feel unsatisfied by that episode.

It felt like this season was supposed to be longer, but then they decided to cut it short.
BudFox7
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Maybe the longest fall from season 1 quality to season 4 ever seen. This finale was so bad it's not worth describing.

Season 1 May be my fav season of "tv" ever. Season 2 was good. 3 and 4 were hot garbage comparatively.
amercer
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Uh, ok, I guess?

That's the end of westworld, and I'm fine with it.

No need to kick dirt on the grave, but yeah.

Just another example of why something like Watchmen was so brilliant and perfect for stopping after one season.
TCTTS
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Four Seasons Landscaping
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Is there somewhere with a plot synopsis?

I don't really know what I watched with the whole Christina timeline thing.
TCTTS
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- Halores managed to get her hands on one of the four Dolores pearls at the end of season three.

- After taking over the world in season four, for some reason, Halores used that Dolores pearl as the story engine/story teller to control all the humans in New York. It was kind of like the base code that ran everything and kept the humans on their loops. Why she chose an old Dolores pearl for this task is beyond me.

- Either way, this story telling/controlling pearl was shielded from its own identity by Halores, and was instead given the fake identity of "Christine," who believed she was a human physically living in New York.

- When, in reality, Christine wasn't human and wasn't even physically *in* New York. She was a virtual program who thought she existed in the real world, likely using an elaborate system of surveillance cameras, augmented reality, in order for her to feel like she was experiencing New York as a physical being. That part is never really explained either.

- The whole time this is going on, deep down underneath the "Christine" code/shield, Dolores is trying to push through, and so she created a roommate, Teddy, etc, to try and help wake herself up from the Christine delusion.

- Once she finally manages to do this, Dolores emerges, remembers everything, and is taken to the Sublime in the Hoover Dam by Halores, who had a change of heart, to build a new world in the Sublime.
Brian Earl Spilner
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The finale was essentially --

A copy of Dolores (Hale) kills another copy of Dolores (MIB) to save another copy of Dolores (Christine).
 
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