regional jet crash? (American Airlines) at Reagan (DCA)

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GAC06
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In reply to titan • 11:04p, 1/29/25
AG
titan said:
GAC06 said:
My way too early guess at what most likely happened:

The helo saw the jet landing Rwy 1 and misidentified it as the traffic they were to pass behind. The PSA crew were task loaded with the runway change and were looking mostly forward and left at the field while the helo was crossing from the right.
In your opinion was the helo somehow "drawn" into the jet when close enough -- could that explain the odd evading but still hitting it motion?


Their actions suggest they never saw the jet until perhaps the very last moment. Whatever maneuvers they made were likely based on looking at the wrong jet imo
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Rockdoc
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In reply to HtownAg19 • 11:05p, 1/29/25
AG
HtownAg19 said:
Rockdoc said:
I'm really falling to understand why ATC wasn't continuously screaming their heads off 15 to 20 seconds before the collision. Maybe they were and I missed it.


Helicopter reported CRJ in sight and were instructed to fly behind it. From that far away in the tower at night there's no way they would've been able to see they were on a direct course for the plane

It was on radar. Someone saw that courses weren't changing.
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Pinochet
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In reply to Catag94 • 11:05p, 1/29/25
Catag94 said:
HtownAg19 said:
Rockdoc said:
I'm really falling to understand why ATC wasn't continuously screaming their heads off 15 to 20 seconds before the collision. Maybe they were and I missed it.


Helicopter reported CRJ in sight and were instructed to fly behind it. From that far away in the tower at night there's no way they would've been able to see they were on a direct course for the plane


Their radar scope could thought.

With visual separation, the radar isn't accurate enough.
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titan
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In reply to bthotugigem05 • 11:05p, 1/29/25
S
bthotugigem05 said:
Never heard of wake turbulence causing lift, which would be negligible for a CRJ in the first place, nor does it appear to have collided anywhere near the engines.
I see. I didn't know that is why asked--- it seemed like a longshot that might explain some of the last minute aspects.
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aginlakeway
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In reply to FireAg • 11:05p, 1/29/25
AG
FireAg said:
Is it wrong that I'm hoping accident and not the alternative?


No. That's what we all hope for. IMO.
One day at a time.
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chickencoupe16
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In reply to titan • 11:06p, 1/29/25
AG
titan said:
GAC06 said:
My way too early guess at what most likely happened:

The helo saw the jet landing Rwy 1 and misidentified it as the traffic they were to pass behind. The PSA crew were task loaded with the runway change and were looking mostly forward and left at the field while the helo was crossing from the right.
In your opinion was the helo somehow "drawn" into the jet when close enough -- could that explain the odd evading but still hitting it motion?
From the 3 videos I've seen, you can tell there are 2 aircraft flying that hit each other and crash. It is impossible to tell anything other than that. From that far away, at night, and with two moving objects, there is no way to tell if there were any evasive actions or accelerations.
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bthotugigem05
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In reply to titan • 11:07p, 1/29/25
AG
titan said:
bthotugigem05 said:
Never heard of wake turbulence causing lift, which would be negligible for a CRJ in the first place, nor does it appear to have collided anywhere near the engines.
I see. I didn't know that is why asked--- it seemed like a longshot that might explain some of the last minute aspects.
No worries. Just about any evasive maneuver for any aircraft requires lift and speed so you don't stall. If you're ever on an aircraft that goes around (happens frequently approaching Vegas) you'll know it because the engines will absolutely be screaming, ensuring there's enough power to safely increase altitude.

Upward motion could've been due to evasive maneuvers or, if the heli crew truly never saw the plane, part of a normal departure.
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MarkTwain
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11:07p, 1/29/25
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because hard men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
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Catag94
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In reply to Pinochet • 11:08p, 1/29/25
AG
1) VFR HC should not have been there.
2) once there, Vectors could have/should have been given to create separation.

ATC failure here IMHO.
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MsDoubleD81
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11:08p, 1/29/25
AG
What is best site for following?
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CanyonAg77
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In reply to titan • 11:09p, 1/29/25
AG
titan said:

Why don't they have alarmed reactions "Omigod---" from the helo if it saw them and tried to evade? Didn't a post here say that traffic control had them on audio but not hearing anything?
You have to push a button to transmit to ATC

No one in that helicopter was thinking about making a radio call in the milliseconds between seeing the jet and their death
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Rockdoc
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In reply to Catag94 • 11:10p, 1/29/25
AG
Catag94 said:
1) VFR HC should not have been there.
2) once there, Vectors could have/should have been given to create separation.

ATC failure here IMHO.

Well this is my guess also. The ball was dropped.
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Pinochet
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In reply to Catag94 • 11:11p, 1/29/25
Catag94 said:
1) VFR HC should not have been there.
2) once there, Vectors could have/should have been given to create separation.

ATC failure here IMHO.

It's a ridiculous opinion but ok. Nothing wrong with another aircraft being there in VMC. See and avoid. Helicopter even said he saw the other aircraft and would pass behind. Until the last second when the RJ descended, they had vertical separation as well. Our airspace doesn't (and shouldn't) run on some weird 3 mile separation standard in VMC. To think it should is a misunderstanding of how all the radar and GPS surveillance systems work and work together.
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titan
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In reply to bthotugigem05 • 11:11p, 1/29/25
S
bthotugigem05 said:
titan said:
bthotugigem05 said:
Never heard of wake turbulence causing lift, which would be negligible for a CRJ in the first place, nor does it appear to have collided anywhere near the engines.
I see. I didn't know that is why asked--- it seemed like a longshot that might explain some of the last minute aspects.
No worries. Just about any evasive maneuver for any aircraft requires lift and speed so you don't stall. If you're ever on an aircraft that goes around (happens frequently approaching Vegas) you'll know it because the engines will absolutely be screaming, ensuring there's enough power to safely increase altitude.

Upward motion could've been due to evasive maneuvers or, if the heli crew truly never saw the plane, part of a normal departure.
Ah, yes, I know the moment you are talking about --- when an airliner aborts a landing (have had it happen once or twice -- one really surprisingly late in process) that's exactly what you hear. Now the maneuvers may not exist as chickencoupe pointed out, but particular the one viewed from the car it almost seems like the chopper running lights speed up (less sure about any upward altitude motion --another poster mentioned that too).
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annie88
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In reply to Guppy • 11:11p, 1/29/25
AG
Guppy said:
As an airline pilot all I will add is T&P and I hope it was quick for those on board. I've listened to too many CVR recordings and hence why I hope this was quick for all the unfortunate individuals involved
You know, tangent thought, I watched that Lockerbie series that's now on Hulu a few weeks ago. I remember it happening. I was just getting out of A&M at the time, but didn't remember a lot of the aftermath of it. And even though it's completely different case from this one, obviously it was a bomb and it wasn't over water, but it was very interesting to learn the specifics with the trial and such especially the father who fought so long for his daughter that was on the flight and sadly much of the cover-up. It is amazing too that it hit so many people in the town when there was so much farmland right around it. These things are always so tragic.

On that one everything was immediate, which I guess is the only thing you can hope for with the victims in these circumstances.
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Stat Monitor Repairman
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11:11p, 1/29/25
Imagine sitting in 16B just having taken an edible about 30 mins before. You got your Airpods in and on track 2 of DSOTM. Next thing you know you in the 35 degree Potomac.
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Gunny456
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In reply to bthotugigem05 • 11:12p, 1/29/25
AG
Wake turbulence from an aircraft wing creating lift is typically wing tip vortices. … horizontal tornadoes in a sense. They can cause a following aircraft to go up or down or sideways. And the jet in question would be creating some significant vortices until lift ceased
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GAC06
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11:12p, 1/29/25
AG
That section of the river (and DC in general) has tons of helo traffic like that
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titan
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In reply to CanyonAg77 • 11:12p, 1/29/25
S
CanyonAg77 said:
titan said:

Why don't they have alarmed reactions "Omigod---" from the helo if it saw them and tried to evade? Didn't a post here say that traffic control had them on audio but not hearing anything?
You have to push a button to transmit to ATC

No one in that helicopter was thinking about making a radio call in the milliseconds between seeing the jet and their death
That explains that! So its not an `open mic' kind of thing on final approach.
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annie88
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In reply to MsDoubleD81 • 11:13p, 1/29/25
AG
MsDoubleD81 said:
What is best site for following?
Well, currently it's all over the major news sites and there's a lot of stuff going back-and-forth on X but remember, everything is unfolding in real time. I'm sure some things will change.
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annie88
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In reply to Stat Monitor Repairman • 11:13p, 1/29/25
AG
Stat Monitor Repairman said:
Imagine sitting in 16B just having taken an edible about 30 mins before. You got your Airpods in and on track 2 of DSOTM. Next thing you know you in the 35 degree Potomac.
Unless there are some survivors, I don't think they knew anything.
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Hank the Grifter
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In reply to FireAg • 11:13p, 1/29/25
FireAg said:
Is it wrong that I'm hoping accident and not the alternative?

What a strange comment.
We ALL hope it was an accident. Why wouldn't you hope that over the alternative?
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BoxingAg84
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11:14p, 1/29/25
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FTAG 2000
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In reply to HtownAg19 • 11:14p, 1/29/25
AG
HtownAg19 said:
Rockdoc said:
I'm really falling to understand why ATC wasn't continuously screaming their heads off 15 to 20 seconds before the collision. Maybe they were and I missed it.


Helicopter reported CRJ in sight and were instructed to fly behind it. From that far away in the tower at night there's no way they would've been able to see they were on a direct course for the plane


Forget pilot comments. The ATC computer was yelling collision avoidance alert for a good 20 seconds before the crash. Plenty of time to intervene if they were paying attention to scope.
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Hank the Grifter
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In reply to titan • 11:16p, 1/29/25
titan said:
CanyonAg77 said:
titan said:

Why don't they have alarmed reactions "Omigod---" from the helo if it saw them and tried to evade? Didn't a post here say that traffic control had them on audio but not hearing anything?
You have to push a button to transmit to ATC

No one in that helicopter was thinking about making a radio call in the milliseconds between seeing the jet and their death
That explains that! So its not an `open mic' kind of thing on final approach.

It's never an open mic kind of thing.
Nobody would be able to hear anything over the thousands of voices.
That's what black boxes are for.
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MsDoubleD81
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In reply to annie88 • 11:16p, 1/29/25
AG
Have ir on Fox News, but just wondering if something had better insite.
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Rapier108
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In reply to BoxingAg84 • 11:16p, 1/29/25
BoxingAg84 said:
And that Hutch and Thomas (censored) must think that ATCs work from home because that is who Trump is targeting with the buyouts.
"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves." - Sir Winston Churchill
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mkpryor11
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In reply to Catag94 • 11:17p, 1/29/25
AG
More dumb. Nothing humble about your opinion.
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titan
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In reply to FTAG 2000 • 11:18p, 1/29/25
S
FTAG 2000 said:
HtownAg19 said:
Rockdoc said:
I'm really falling to understand why ATC wasn't continuously screaming their heads off 15 to 20 seconds before the collision. Maybe they were and I missed it.


Helicopter reported CRJ in sight and were instructed to fly behind it. From that far away in the tower at night there's no way they would've been able to see they were on a direct course for the plane


Forget pilot comments. The ATC computer was yelling collision avoidance alert for a good 20 seconds before the crash. Plenty of time to intervene if they were paying attention to scope.
So that screen video is genuine. So this sounds like it means Artificial or automated traffic control would have prevented this indeed.
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Pinochet
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In reply to FTAG 2000 • 11:18p, 1/29/25
FTAG 2000 said:
HtownAg19 said:
Rockdoc said:
I'm really falling to understand why ATC wasn't continuously screaming their heads off 15 to 20 seconds before the collision. Maybe they were and I missed it.


Helicopter reported CRJ in sight and were instructed to fly behind it. From that far away in the tower at night there's no way they would've been able to see they were on a direct course for the plane


Forget pilot comments. The ATC computer was yelling collision avoidance alert for a good 20 seconds before the crash. Plenty of time to intervene if they were paying attention to scope.

lol. He did address it and addressed it appropriately. That CA starts miles away. We're not changing our standard to 3 miles separation at all times. That's just dumb.
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FTAG 2000
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In reply to BoxingAg84 • 11:18p, 1/29/25
AG
BoxingAg84 said:


Thomas is a dumbass. Unqualified people being hired the last four years isn't the fault of the guy put in charge a week ago.
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annie88
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In reply to MsDoubleD81 • 11:18p, 1/29/25
AG
MsDoubleD81 said:
Have ir on Fox News, but just wondering if something had better insite.
I'm not watching anything. I'm checking out online, but I don't think there is anything much better than the news sites, as hard as that is to support, but some of the stuff on X gets out there faster but again it's all happening in real time.
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Catag94
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In reply to Pinochet • 11:18p, 1/29/25
AG
Pinochet said:
Catag94 said:
1) VFR HC should not have been there.
2) once there, Vectors could have/should have been given to create separation.

ATC failure here IMHO.

It's a ridiculous opinion but ok. Nothing wrong with another aircraft being there in VMC. See and avoid. Helicopter even said he saw the other aircraft and would pass behind. Until the last second when the RJ descended, they had vertical separation as well. Our airspace doesn't (and shouldn't) run on some weird 3 mile separation standard in VMC. To think it should is a misunderstanding of how all the radar and GPS surveillance systems work and work together.


I'm not sure you're following why I say the HC shouldn't bee there.
You do realize the HC was roughly 150-300' AGL in the glide path of a normal approach (visual or otherwise) to a runway inside of 1 mile of the threshold. What ATC would authorize a VFR craft to do that? It is Class B airspace after all.

If the HC is going to be 300' AGL, get him further from the airport. Or, put him over the center of the airport - somewhere out of approach paths.

What the hell is ridiculous about that? It's what the ATC in DFW class B does everyday.
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GAC06
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In reply to FTAG 2000 • 11:18p, 1/29/25
AG
FTAG 2000 said:
HtownAg19 said:
Rockdoc said:
I'm really falling to understand why ATC wasn't continuously screaming their heads off 15 to 20 seconds before the collision. Maybe they were and I missed it.


Helicopter reported CRJ in sight and were instructed to fly behind it. From that far away in the tower at night there's no way they would've been able to see they were on a direct course for the plane


Forget pilot comments. The ATC computer was yelling collision avoidance alert for a good 20 seconds before the crash. Plenty of time to intervene if they were paying attention to scope.


The collision warning would be a very common occurrence there
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CanyonAg77
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In reply to Catag94 • 11:20p, 1/29/25
AG
Blackhawks have radar????

They arent fighters, they dont have a radar to track planes, do they?
.
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