I'm not asking you to comment. You can remain reticent.chickencoupe16 said:
I will not be contributing to your nonsense.
regional jet crash? (American Airlines) at Reagan (DCA)
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1557 Replies |
Last: 16 hrs ago by titan
You said the rotor bore the brunt of impact. Did it? Did that brunt of impact cause the UH to roll forward? Think about it.GAC06 said:
You're just making **** up
Quote:
Simple physics.
Show your work
Take it to the helicopter-airliner-collision board.
GAC06 said:
You're lost. Both aircraft were moving, the CRJ faster than the 60. From the video, the 60 tumbled forward after impact, suggesting that the rotor was what made contact, not the fuselage for the most part. The CRJ may have broken up before impact with the water but that's not evident from the video.
To me it appears the 60 got just in front of the CRJ's right wing and slightly below, the collision sent the 60 forward without its rotor and the CRJ into the river as well following its momentum.
Go find some more diagrams and MTOW numbers from google though.
Go on. The rotors were knocked off. Then the UH struck the fuselage driving through the CRJ, breaking off a wing at least and all tumbling into the river.
The blunt force on rotors are meaningless to the fatal accident. Thank you.
Holy cow there must be some high definition vids I haven't seen.
Quote:
Then the UH struck the fuselage driving through the CRJ
Did it? Based on what? The lighter, slower aircraft "drove through" the heavier, faster aircraft? Then continued it's momentum forward?
GAC06 said:Quote:
Simple physics.
Show your work
I did.
Weights of the aircraft were posted.
Tell me how much damage -10 ton item at 125 knots does to a much larger aircraft. Don't even mention rotors.
ETA: Do you realize the UH hit an object that was effectively stopped relative to the the UH's direction of travel?
boulderaggie said:
I'm still astonished at the astronomically horrible odds that these two aircraft traveling at the speeds they do, at dynamic altitudes, could occupy the same exact airspace at the same exact moment. Truly tragic.
See Randy Johnson Birdstrike.
If the UH shears a wing off of the CRJ, yes.GAC06 said:Quote:
Then the UH struck the fuselage driving through the CRJ
Did it? Based on what? The lighter, slower aircraft "drove through" the heavier, faster aircraft? Then continued it's momentum forward?
You have an active imagination
You're too kindGAC06 said:
You have an active imagination
I didn't say ban it.aTmAg said:Helicopters have been taking off and landing at the same airports with other aircraft forever. You want to ban that?annie88 said:
I don't care what they have or haven't done in the past helicopters do not need to be flying that closely to planes taking off and landing at airports. Period.
I said that closely, and in a cross path, but there should be some stricter rules about it.
True. I did not see any rotors separate. I did see a wing.Rockdoc said:
Holy cow there must be some high definition vids I haven't seen.
Both aircraft were split apart. The little rotors be damned.
Apparently, the helicopter (along with most military aircraft other than the F-35) do not have ADS-B. I think that alone would have kept this from happening.annie88 said:I didn't say ban it.aTmAg said:Helicopters have been taking off and landing at the same airports with other aircraft forever. You want to ban that?annie88 said:
I don't care what they have or haven't done in the past helicopters do not need to be flying that closely to planes taking off and landing at airports. Period.
I said that closely, but there should be some stricter rules about it.
I think those strict rules ARE in place. Somebody screwed up. I do not feel it was the aircrews.Quote:
I said that closely, and in a cross path, but there should be some stricter rules about it.
One small point. A major weak link is can't see any scenario no matter how disciplined where they are allowed to intersect at right angles or close to that at the same moment in time in air space at less than blatantly distant altitudes. It just seems borrowing trouble --- the chopper passing too soon in front or after the jet crossed are both fare more sensible risks and still not without some of their own. This does seem a timing thing too.
aTmAg said:Apparently, the helicopter (along with most military aircraft other than the F-35) do not have ADS-B. I think that alone would have kept this from happening.annie88 said:I didn't say ban it.aTmAg said:Helicopters have been taking off and landing at the same airports with other aircraft forever. You want to ban that?annie88 said:
I don't care what they have or haven't done in the past helicopters do not need to be flying that closely to planes taking off and landing at airports. Period.
I said that closely, but there should be some stricter rules about it.
Military aircraft definitely have ADSB, they just aren't required to use it. It's normally fighters and bombers that don't while trainers, helicopters, and transport normally do. No idea of the Blackhawk was using is in the wreck.
Only about 60% of aircraft have it. I have heard that this one did not. Which would explain why the airliner took no evasive action and why tracking data only seems to exist for this helicopter every 5 seconds or so rather than the 1 hz as required by ADS-B.chickencoupe16 said:aTmAg said:Apparently, the helicopter (along with most military aircraft other than the F-35) do not have ADS-B. I think that alone would have kept this from happening.annie88 said:I didn't say ban it.aTmAg said:Helicopters have been taking off and landing at the same airports with other aircraft forever. You want to ban that?annie88 said:
I don't care what they have or haven't done in the past helicopters do not need to be flying that closely to planes taking off and landing at airports. Period.
I said that closely, but there should be some stricter rules about it.
Military aircraft definitely have ADSB, they just aren't required to use it. It's normally fighters and bombers that don't while trainers, helicopters, and transport normally do. No idea of the Blackhawk was using is in the wreck.
did you even watch the video you posted? The UH60/CRJ collide, explosion, and the UH60 continues to the right and down into the water. It does not 'stop almost immediately'.bobbranco said:It's not a homework assignment. All has been documented on this thread.GAC06 said:bobbranco said:GAC06 said:
Yeah that's not how it works. They collided and it looks to me like the main rotor of the helo took the brunt of the impact
Explain how it works.
UH60 weighs about 20,000 lbs.
CRJ700 weighs about 70,000 lbs.
Show your work.
I've seen nothing indicating that the CRJ broke apart before hitting the water. The fact that it's in multiple pieces whereas the helo fuselage is mostly intact doesn't mean anything as far as "who hit who". Thanks for the homework assignment though.
You must be blind. The UH60 stops almost immediately after flying into the starboard side of the CRJ.
The CRJ reportedly broke into 3 parts. 2 parts of the CRJ are clearly splashing into the water.BREAKING: New, much more clear video of the American Airlines collision with the Black Hawk.
— Brian Krassenstein (@krassenstein) January 31, 2025
Thoughts from any Pilots? pic.twitter.com/s11IykHDPM
This thread has devolved past the point of being useful or informative
aTmAg said:Only about 60% of aircraft have it. I have heard that this one did not. Which would explain why the airliner took no evasive action and why tracking data only seems to exist for this helicopter every 5 seconds or so rather than the 1 hz as required by ADS-B.chickencoupe16 said:aTmAg said:Apparently, the helicopter (along with most military aircraft other than the F-35) do not have ADS-B. I think that alone would have kept this from happening.annie88 said:I didn't say ban it.aTmAg said:Helicopters have been taking off and landing at the same airports with other aircraft forever. You want to ban that?annie88 said:
I don't care what they have or haven't done in the past helicopters do not need to be flying that closely to planes taking off and landing at airports. Period.
I said that closely, but there should be some stricter rules about it.
Military aircraft definitely have ADSB, they just aren't required to use it. It's normally fighters and bombers that don't while trainers, helicopters, and transport normally do. No idea of the Blackhawk was using is in the wreck.
I did not realize that such a significant portion don't have it. At the same time, the tone of your post was much more complete than would seem to be the case assuming the 60% number is correct.
bobbranco said:True. I did not see any rotors separate. I did see a wing.Rockdoc said:
Holy cow there must be some high definition vids I haven't seen.
Both aircraft were split apart. The little rotors be damned.
you probably also think the conveyor is not moot
F16 at its finest!ChemAg15 said:
This thread has devolved past the point of being useful or informative
There's a lot of rank fake speculation about CPT Loach.
And it was CW2 Eaves voice who confirmed visual on the ATC audio I believe.
The staffer circled below is a former junior Biden press aide, per source familiar. The individual pictured is NOT Capt. Rebecca Lobach. https://t.co/vpLPaXYKQb
— Philip Melanchthon Wegmann (@PhilipWegmann) February 2, 2025
And it was CW2 Eaves voice who confirmed visual on the ATC audio I believe.
agracer said:
did you even watch the video you posted? The UH60/CRJ collide, explosion, and the UH60 continues to the right and down into the water. It does not 'stop almost immediately'.
You would have a valid point if I state 'stopped immediately'.
Given the fact that UH60 travels maybe 100 to150 ft while travelling about 125 knots that's stopping almost immediately.
aTmAg said:Apparently, the helicopter (along with most military aircraft other than the F-35) do not have ADS-B. I think that alone would have kept this from happening.annie88 said:I didn't say ban it.aTmAg said:Helicopters have been taking off and landing at the same airports with other aircraft forever. You want to ban that?annie88 said:
I don't care what they have or haven't done in the past helicopters do not need to be flying that closely to planes taking off and landing at airports. Period.
I said that closely, but there should be some stricter rules about it.
Military aircarft have ADS-B. The Balckhawk at a minimum would have had ADB-B out. Meaning that other aircraft could see the Hawk. It is very possible that the Blackhawk had no native means to display ADS-B information in the cockpit. The work around my unit uses is having a Strattus reciever that displays to an IPad.
The military was not required to have the ADS-B in place at the time that it went into effect for civilian aircraft and an extension was granted that gave additional time.
Not all military aircraft have ADS-B. And if the airliner could see the Blackhawk, then it would have tried to maneuver out of the way. It wouldn't stand firm because of some sort of "right of way" pissing contest.ArmyAg2002 said:aTmAg said:Apparently, the helicopter (along with most military aircraft other than the F-35) do not have ADS-B. I think that alone would have kept this from happening.annie88 said:I didn't say ban it.aTmAg said:Helicopters have been taking off and landing at the same airports with other aircraft forever. You want to ban that?annie88 said:
I don't care what they have or haven't done in the past helicopters do not need to be flying that closely to planes taking off and landing at airports. Period.
I said that closely, but there should be some stricter rules about it.
Military aircarft have ADS-B. The Balckhawk at a minimum would have had ADB-B out. Meaning that other aircraft could see the Hawk. It is very possible that the Blackhawk had no native means to display ADS-B information in the cockpit. The work around my unit uses is having a Strattus reciever that displays to an IPad.
The military was not required to have the ADS-B in place at the time that it went into effect for civilian aircraft and an extension was granted that gave additional time.
And even if the Blackhawk had Foreflight and a Stratus, that doesn't mean everybody else can see them if they weren't broadcasting ADS-B themselves.
aTmAg said:Not all military aircraft have ADS-B. And if the airliner could see the Blackhawk, then it would have tried to maneuver out of the way. It wouldn't stand firm because of some sort of "right of way" pissing contest.ArmyAg2002 said:aTmAg said:Apparently, the helicopter (along with most military aircraft other than the F-35) do not have ADS-B. I think that alone would have kept this from happening.annie88 said:I didn't say ban it.aTmAg said:Helicopters have been taking off and landing at the same airports with other aircraft forever. You want to ban that?annie88 said:
I don't care what they have or haven't done in the past helicopters do not need to be flying that closely to planes taking off and landing at airports. Period.
I said that closely, but there should be some stricter rules about it.
Military aircarft have ADS-B. The Balckhawk at a minimum would have had ADB-B out. Meaning that other aircraft could see the Hawk. It is very possible that the Blackhawk had no native means to display ADS-B information in the cockpit. The work around my unit uses is having a Strattus reciever that displays to an IPad.
The military was not required to have the ADS-B in place at the time that it went into effect for civilian aircraft and an extension was granted that gave additional time.
And even if the Blackhawk had Foreflight and a Stratus, that doesn't mean everybody else can see them if they weren't broadcasting ADS-B themselves.
I can't tell you if it was functioning properly, but I can tell you it was available and it runs off aircraft power. ATC is very quick to tell you if it is not responding. In class B airspace I would highly doubt it was not being used.
It would seem to me that most likely the helicopter crew was focused on the ground, being low and at night, and also the aircraft they may have thought the ATC was referring to, which was the one that just took off and flew past in front of them, which the airliner crew was focused on the runway and instruments guiding them down to it in the landing phase.
I think it has been a poor choice to needlessly saturate that airspace with aircraft of multiple types and missions.
I think it has been a poor choice to needlessly saturate that airspace with aircraft of multiple types and missions.
The video from earlier in this thread shows like only 3 state vector updates from the Blackhawk in like a 20 second span. ADS-B sends one a second. And there is no way that the airliner saw a Blackhawk on their displays and decided, "meh.. that guy better move or we are going to teach him a lesson!" That makes zero sense.ArmyAg2002 said:I can't tell you if it was functioning properly, but I can tell you it was available and it runs off aircraft power. ATC is very quick to tell you if it is not responding. In class B airspace I would highly doubt it was not being used.aTmAg said:Not all military aircraft have ADS-B. And if the airliner could see the Blackhawk, then it would have tried to maneuver out of the way. It wouldn't stand firm because of some sort of "right of way" pissing contest.ArmyAg2002 said:aTmAg said:Apparently, the helicopter (along with most military aircraft other than the F-35) do not have ADS-B. I think that alone would have kept this from happening.annie88 said:I didn't say ban it.aTmAg said:Helicopters have been taking off and landing at the same airports with other aircraft forever. You want to ban that?annie88 said:
I don't care what they have or haven't done in the past helicopters do not need to be flying that closely to planes taking off and landing at airports. Period.
I said that closely, but there should be some stricter rules about it.
Military aircarft have ADS-B. The Balckhawk at a minimum would have had ADB-B out. Meaning that other aircraft could see the Hawk. It is very possible that the Blackhawk had no native means to display ADS-B information in the cockpit. The work around my unit uses is having a Strattus reciever that displays to an IPad.
The military was not required to have the ADS-B in place at the time that it went into effect for civilian aircraft and an extension was granted that gave additional time.
And even if the Blackhawk had Foreflight and a Stratus, that doesn't mean everybody else can see them if they weren't broadcasting ADS-B themselves.
This is the helicopter-airliner-collision thread.aTmAg said:
Take it to the helicopter-airliner-collision board.
Only for 2 of you.bobbranco said:This is the helicopter-airliner-collision thread.aTmAg said:
Take it to the helicopter-airliner-collision board.
I watched an interesting analysis yesterday from a former F15 jock who has been flying commercial for a while. I watch all of his mishap analysis videos. His channel is Pilot Debrief on You tube. On the approach plate for 33 the final reference turn point is IDEK with a 3.2 degree glide slope to threshold. That glide slope puts the CRJ between 200 and 300 feet at the river. Instant conflict and bad timing. Additionally, when ATC called out the CRJ traffic to PAT25 the separation between the two aircraft was 6nm. No way that PAT 25 could have definitively identified that particular aircraft at 6nm.
Scouts Out
That Pilot Debrief "Hoover" guy is great.
His videos are very informative and unfortunately - always tragic.
His videos are very informative and unfortunately - always tragic.
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