Boggles the mind how that helicopter didn't see the plane. That is a high traffic area and not having your head on a swivel is inexcusable. Unfortunately, everyone involved is dead so we may never know exactly what happened. I don't think military helicopters have cockpit voice recorders. At least they didn't when I was flying. (I flew AH-1W Cobras for the Marines many years ago).bmks270 said:
Webcam filmed the collision.Webcam at the Kennedy Center caught an explosion mid-air across the Potomac. https://t.co/v75sxitpH6 pic.twitter.com/HInYdhBYs5
— Alejandro Alvarez (@aletweetsnews) January 30, 2025
regional jet crash? (American Airlines) at Reagan (DCA)
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Last: 11 hrs ago by titan
Tramp96 said:Muy said:Tramp96 said:VaultingChemist said:Army Blackhawk helicopter pilot should have flown the flight path seen in white but deviated from that approved flight plan near Reagan National Airport in DC.
— JackReacher (@DCjusticeseeker) January 30, 2025
Why? pic.twitter.com/878l5rZwHe
Sean Duffy says both aircraft were maintaining standard flight patterns.
Is that throwing shade at ATC for messing up or what?
I don't think so. I think he was trying to get in front of any misinformation or possibly conspiracy theories that the setting for this collision was completely out of protocols or intentionally violated.
Granted, we are way, way too early into this at this point. I can see why airline pilots do not want the runway 33 approach. The final for that is a bit of a maneuver and it put them in that standard route for the helicopters.
DCA is easy to fly into. The flight corridors for noise control is a minor problem. The helicopters are not supposed to be any problem unless of course they stray from their lanes.
So they believe there are 67 dead, is that accurate? sorry, just catching up here.
Question on helicopters...
Do helicopters flying (training or a standard route) have a predetermined flight path?
Is it flown with an auto-pilot, like a plane?
And what is the deviation possible from that path in either altitude or side to side? Whether it is computer controlled, or can the pilot override it? (I am not insinuating any nefarious action by the pilot, just curious about a pilot's level of control if the flight path is predetermined.)
Do helicopters flying (training or a standard route) have a predetermined flight path?
Is it flown with an auto-pilot, like a plane?
And what is the deviation possible from that path in either altitude or side to side? Whether it is computer controlled, or can the pilot override it? (I am not insinuating any nefarious action by the pilot, just curious about a pilot's level of control if the flight path is predetermined.)
YupLogos Stick said:
So they believe there are 67 dead, is that accurate? sorry, just catching up here.
No, he was just saying that helicopters going up and down the Potomac while planes are landing on that runway is nothing unusual.Muy said:Tramp96 said:VaultingChemist said:Army Blackhawk helicopter pilot should have flown the flight path seen in white but deviated from that approved flight plan near Reagan National Airport in DC.
— JackReacher (@DCjusticeseeker) January 30, 2025
Why? pic.twitter.com/878l5rZwHe
Sean Duffy says both aircraft were maintaining standard flight patterns.
Is that throwing shade at ATC for messing up or what?
The planes landing are under IFR (Instrument Flight Rules) which means their flight pattern is under the control of ATC.
The helicopters are under VFR (Visual Flight Rules) which means they fly on their own and must "See and Avoid" other aircraft and ground obstacles. The helicopter obviously missed one or both of the "See and Avoid" part of that.
Not looking good if this is the case…. HC looks to have deviated from its Normal flight path / route. Probably some young kid training and the trainer was doing something stupid like maybe watching something on their iPhone, we shall find out soon I would think. Senseless errors cost a lot of livesVaultingChemist said:Army Blackhawk helicopter pilot should have flown the flight path seen in white but deviated from that approved flight plan near Reagan National Airport in DC.
— JackReacher (@DCjusticeseeker) January 30, 2025
Why? pic.twitter.com/878l5rZwHe
Supposedly an experienced Officer and CWO flying.
Kyle Field Shade Chaser
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AG
If the Heli doesn't break the 200ft ceiling there is no crash. Imagine it's why they have the 200ft ceiling protocol in place for helo's in that vicinity.
That's cool and all but why did they deviate ? Seems some dummy wasn't paying attention, doesn't matter how much experience you have when you aren't paying attention or better yet do stupid stuffbobbranco said:
Supposedly an experienced Officer and CWO flying.
Tramp96 said:VaultingChemist said:Army Blackhawk helicopter pilot should have flown the flight path seen in white but deviated from that approved flight plan near Reagan National Airport in DC.
— JackReacher (@DCjusticeseeker) January 30, 2025
Why? pic.twitter.com/878l5rZwHe
Sean Duffy says both aircraft were maintaining standard flight patterns.
Yeah this rando on twitter is using ms paint to just draw the border of the river. This tweet shows zero evidence the white line was the flight path.
fullback44 said:Not looking good if this is the case…. HC looks to have deviated from its Normal flight path / route. Probably some young kid training and the trainer was doing something stupid like maybe watching something on their iPhone, we shall find out soon I would think. Senseless errors cost a lot of livesVaultingChemist said:Army Blackhawk helicopter pilot should have flown the flight path seen in white but deviated from that approved flight plan near Reagan National Airport in DC.
— JackReacher (@DCjusticeseeker) January 30, 2025
Why? pic.twitter.com/878l5rZwHe
I do not want to speculate directly on this incident. But this is going to be more and more of an issue. Cell phones and social media are ruining young minds
The trouble with quotes on the internet is that you never know if they are genuine. -- Abraham Lincoln.
My prediction is that the last minute change to runway 33 for the CRJ will be cited as a major factor in the whole chain of events. If you've spent a lot of time at DCA you see a steady stream of traffic arriving and departing from runway 1. For all practical purposes it's essentially a single runway field. 33 is seldom used, due to short length and it also has a crossing with runway 1 itself on the ground, which causes other issues with traffic flow. My guess is that the helo pilots were used to avoiding the primary approach path for runway 1 and had watched several other jets in the patterns lined up for 1, then got somewhat lax about deviating a bit because they were still well away from where they thought all the traffic would be. Last minute change to 33 for the CRJ, poor / confusing communication about visual ID, and there you have it.
Recording i had last night must be missing some of the freq. The theory of them having the wrong CRJ (or what they thought was a CRJ) in sight is starting to make more sense.fire09 said:
No. VFR deconflict was confirmed, ATC moves on to the next task. It's pilot's responsibility at that point forward. I just listened to the audio and it's clear that the 60 confirmed separation, meaning his responsibility to maintain.
Doesn't seem like they were at the correct altitude for that route either. But I don't have every detail of that night. Just some charts and flight paths.
60 passengers + 4 crew on the plane. 3 crew on the helicopter.Logos Stick said:
So they believe there are 67 dead, is that accurate? sorry, just catching up here.
They haven't recovered all the bodies yet but there were no expected survivors.
JFABNRGR said:Catag94 said:
The UH60 was flying route 4 in the helicopter rout chart posted above. He was not on a departure but was transistioning the airspace on that route. That route has strict instruction published in that chart the maximum altitude in the stretch is 200' MSL. They were 175' above that.
Now, to me, separation that little is enough to ask the helo to reduce speed or to vector in order to increase separation given the inbound crj but ATC didn't do so that.
It looks like the Helo also turns right deviating off the bank or posted route.
Other possibility is they missed the runway change of the CRJ from 1 to 33 communications.
Will be interesting to see the modeled cockpit view from the helo from about 2 min to impact. Maybe if ATC added clock direction to the CRJ for PAT25 the tragedy could have been avoided.
Agree. I too was shocked that ATC didn't offer more about the traffic for PAT25. Something to the effect of, PAT25, traffic 11 0'clock, 1 mile, NW bound CRJ 500' landing runway 33.
I'm also shocked ATC didn't assign him the published route 4 altitude of 200' if only as a reminder.
fullback44 said:That's cool and all but why did they deviate ? Seems some dummy wasn't paying attention, doesn't matter how much experience you have when you aren't paying attention or better yet do stupid stuffbobbranco said:
Supposedly an experienced Officer and CWO flying.
Why are you taking a random tweet as if it's verified fact? Helicopters that fly around on training missions and just in/around DC in general aren't following pre-scheduled flight paths often times like commercial airlines are.
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True but if the helo just follows the 200ft ceiling protocol there is likely never an issue or risk for collisions.
So regardless of path, probably should start by enforcing the protocol.
So regardless of path, probably should start by enforcing the protocol.
coconutED said:🚨#BREAKING: Shared to me anonymously shows the Playback from official Air Traffic Control radar
— R A W S A L E R T S (@rawsalerts) January 30, 2025
📌#Washington | #DC
Watch as exclusive playback, sent anonymously by @avgeekjake to Rawsalerst, reveals official Air Traffic Control radar footage displaying the Collision Alert.… pic.twitter.com/s2SvT2OTPJ
Note: This is not live radar, but rather a playback of recorded ATC data. I don't know how to verify this, but it looks authentic.
This makes me think of the Wings over Dallas accident. I suspect the Airliner pilot was looking Left at the approach and the HC pilot was looking Right following the plane that just landed. They never would have seen each other as heli hidden to airline pilot by his banking plane and Heli looking at airport? Wings over Dallas airboss was blamed for not giving clearer instructions. Could/should the ATC given better, more clear instructions?
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Last night they only had recordings with the civilian frequencies. By this morning, news outlets seemed to have recordings with the military frequencies.ETFan said:Recording i had last night must be missing some of the freq. The theory of them having the wrong CRJ (or what they thought was a CRJ) in sight is starting to make more sense.fire09 said:
No. VFR deconflict was confirmed, ATC moves on to the next task. It's pilot's responsibility at that point forward. I just listened to the audio and it's clear that the 60 confirmed separation, meaning his responsibility to maintain.
Doesn't seem like they were at the correct altitude for that route either. But I don't have every detail of that night. Just some charts and flight paths.
ATC can communicate with both, but they can't with each other. I think that is a problem, particularly in crowded airspace like DC.
Quote:
This makes me think of the Wings over Dallas accident. I suspect the Airliner pilot was looking Left at the approach and the HC pilot was looking Right following the plane that just landed. They never would have seen each other as heli hidden by banking plane and Heli looking at airport? Wings over Dallas airboss was blamed for not giving clearer instructions. Could/should the ATC given better, more clear instructions?
That's the most plausible theory by very respected pilots online so far. The helicopter was on a different frequency (that ATC had access to), so originally when they said there was an RJ approaching for landing, imo this was the thing 'forgotten' by the helo pilot. Next ATC asks the helo to go behind the RJ.
RJ looks right, sees the departing jet and assumes they have plenty of clearance so they stay going along their way. Meanwhile the descending plane was eying the runway looking left and the helicopter was below them to their right making it virtually impossible to see them, and even if they saw the anti crash lights it could have blended in with city lights/airport lights etc.
Helo had their eyes to the right of the departing jet and it was a perfect storm as the rotor clipped the bottom of the jet.
thank you
Man...thanks for clearing that up. I was afraid this was the start of a new normal.
Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy: "Obviously, it is not standard to have aircraft collide. I want to be clear on that." pic.twitter.com/MtVrku3GAL
— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) January 30, 2025
Gig 'Em
Bunk Moreland said:fullback44 said:That's cool and all but why did they deviate ? Seems some dummy wasn't paying attention, doesn't matter how much experience you have when you aren't paying attention or better yet do stupid stuffbobbranco said:
Supposedly an experienced Officer and CWO flying.
Why are you taking a random tweet as if it's verified fact? Helicopters that fly around on training missions and just in/around DC in general aren't following pre-scheduled flight paths often times like commercial airlines are.
True, but when you have airspace where there is regular commercial aviation, there are rules to follow, whether you are a helicopter or not. Those rules are to prevent accidents exactly like this.
So for heli pilots on this thread - are there scenarios where the heli in this airspace is allowed to deviate from the 200' flight cap? What situations would cause him to want to deviate? Can he only do it if ATC allows him?
You are probably right. This has looked like a both sides thought clear path set for them type of collision from early on and the real wild card apart from the helo being too high and off path is the change to runway 33 at just that time seems to be problematic enough that would like to know why the plane before them *refused* to accept the change that was mentioned? Was that an experienced airliner pilot that knew was risky in some way not obvious or just routine refusal?akaggie05 said:
My prediction is that the last minute change to runway 33 for the CRJ will be cited as a major factor in the whole chain of events. If you've spent a lot of time at DCA you see a steady stream of traffic arriving and departing from runway 1. For all practical purposes it's essentially a single runway field. 33 is seldom used, due to short length and it also has a crossing with runway 1 itself on the ground, which causes other issues with traffic flow. My guess is that the helo pilots were used to avoiding the primary approach path for runway 1 and had watched several other jets in the patterns lined up for 1, then got somewhat lax about deviating a bit because they were still well away from where they thought all the traffic would be. Last minute change to 33 for the CRJ, poor / confusing communication about visual ID, and there you have it.
BBRex said:Bunk Moreland said:fullback44 said:That's cool and all but why did they deviate ? Seems some dummy wasn't paying attention, doesn't matter how much experience you have when you aren't paying attention or better yet do stupid stuffbobbranco said:
Supposedly an experienced Officer and CWO flying.
Why are you taking a random tweet as if it's verified fact? Helicopters that fly around on training missions and just in/around DC in general aren't following pre-scheduled flight paths often times like commercial airlines are.
True, but when you have airspace where there is regular commercial aviation, there are rules to follow, whether you are a helicopter or not. Those rules are to prevent accidents exactly like this.
DC is a very different situation. Especially Reagan National. A pilot on FNC last night said it is very common all the time to have helicopters flying around in that airspace. The airport was specifically designed to be as close to the Capitol as possible for people in gov't working to quickly get in and out as needed.
He wasn't necessarily saying he was happy it happens and it's a breeze, just said anyone who flies into DCA knows this and so do the helo pilots...it's just something you deal with in that area. There's not really any other areas for the helicopters or planes to go because they can't access the airspace of the sensitive areas of DC so it sort of blocks them so to speak.
Other than the helicopter being high, there is noting that is abnormal and not done at other airports. What I would like to hear is the ATC recoding from the takeoff of the helicopter.
ATC is required to alert aircraft of a "CA" alert, which is a conflict alert. That alert is visible and audible in the tower, or TRACON. If tower controller saw that alert, phraseology is, PAT25, traffic alert, traffic is "position and distance." and instructions. However, we must wiat to all the data comes out. Also, it sounds like 2 different controllers, working the taffic and the one that talks to the helicopter.
ATC is required to alert aircraft of a "CA" alert, which is a conflict alert. That alert is visible and audible in the tower, or TRACON. If tower controller saw that alert, phraseology is, PAT25, traffic alert, traffic is "position and distance." and instructions. However, we must wiat to all the data comes out. Also, it sounds like 2 different controllers, working the taffic and the one that talks to the helicopter.
"If you got to tell em who you are, you ain't"
Anonymous Source said:
Man...thanks for clearing that up. I was afraid this was the start of a new normal.Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy: "Obviously, it is not standard to have aircraft collide. I want to be clear on that." pic.twitter.com/MtVrku3GAL
— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) January 30, 2025
IMO Duffy messed up in his first big test. Saying that both flight paths were "normal" is not reassuring, at all. It makes me wonder why we haven't seen more of this happen. Surely it isn't "normal" to have helicopters crossing the take-off and landing paths of flights at DCA.
These are reasonable limitations and realities. That makes complete sense.That's why its essential the laid out paths and altitudes be followed. Same as with a busy shipping channel. No room for deviation even if you are important if you don't warn others very obviously of what you are doing. The system is structured for, pun intended, everyone to "stay in their lane." Sounds like this is no different.Bunk Moreland said:BBRex said:Bunk Moreland said:fullback44 said:That's cool and all but why did they deviate ? Seems some dummy wasn't paying attention, doesn't matter how much experience you have when you aren't paying attention or better yet do stupid stuffbobbranco said:
Supposedly an experienced Officer and CWO flying.
Why are you taking a random tweet as if it's verified fact? Helicopters that fly around on training missions and just in/around DC in general aren't following pre-scheduled flight paths often times like commercial airlines are.
True, but when you have airspace where there is regular commercial aviation, there are rules to follow, whether you are a helicopter or not. Those rules are to prevent accidents exactly like this.
DC is a very different situation. Especially Reagan National. A pilot on FNC last night said it is very common all the time to have helicopters flying around in that airspace. The airport was specifically designed to be as close to the Capitol as possible for people in gov't working to quickly get in and out as needed.
He wasn't necessarily saying he was happy it happens and it's a breeze, just said anyone who flies into DCA knows this and so do the helo pilots...it's just something you deal with in that area. There's not really any other areas for the helicopters or planes to go because they can't access the airspace of the sensitive areas of DC so it sort of blocks them so to speak.
Unfortunately I think it is.TheCurl84 said:Anonymous Source said:
Man...thanks for clearing that up. I was afraid this was the start of a new normal.Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy: "Obviously, it is not standard to have aircraft collide. I want to be clear on that." pic.twitter.com/MtVrku3GAL
— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) January 30, 2025
IMO Duffy messed up in his first big test. Saying that both flight paths were "normal" is not reassuring, at all. It makes me wonder why we haven't seen more of this happen. Surely it isn't "normal" to have helicopters crossing the take-off and landing paths of flights at DCA.
Bunk Moreland said:BBRex said:Bunk Moreland said:fullback44 said:That's cool and all but why did they deviate ? Seems some dummy wasn't paying attention, doesn't matter how much experience you have when you aren't paying attention or better yet do stupid stuffbobbranco said:
Supposedly an experienced Officer and CWO flying.
Why are you taking a random tweet as if it's verified fact? Helicopters that fly around on training missions and just in/around DC in general aren't following pre-scheduled flight paths often times like commercial airlines are.
True, but when you have airspace where there is regular commercial aviation, there are rules to follow, whether you are a helicopter or not. Those rules are to prevent accidents exactly like this.
DC is a very different situation. Especially Reagan National. A pilot on FNC last night said it is very common all the time to have helicopters flying around in that airspace. The airport was specifically designed to be as close to the Capitol as possible for people in gov't working to quickly get in and out as needed.
He wasn't necessarily saying he was happy it happens and it's a breeze, just said anyone who flies into DCA knows this and so do the helo pilots...it's just something you deal with in that area. There's not really any other areas for the helicopters or planes to go because they can't access the airspace of the sensitive areas of DC so it sort of blocks them so to speak.
Agreed. If it weren't for this being by far the most popular airport for Congress to fly in and out of, it almost certainly would have been closed to commercial aviation and maybe all aviation after 9/11. A ton of other traffic from military and other aircraft plus the risk of another 9/11 event because you can go from the regular flight path to the Capital and other key buildings in a minute or two.
I doubt there will be any serious calls to do it this time but we will see.
Back to the figure skaters
In 1961, the US Figure Skating Team lost 18 skaters and coaches in a plane crash. I believe they were traveling to Prague for a competition
In 1961, the US Figure Skating Team lost 18 skaters and coaches in a plane crash. I believe they were traveling to Prague for a competition
In a purely theoretical sense, substandard ATC was hypothetically among the candidates for a crash like this, just like it being an intentional act was, but it makes no sense why it continues to be brought up when you have a violation of flight path that explains it. That plus it being a "norm" to have the traffic go the way it does means it is just a place where you have to follow the rules and be on your toes. Again like a channel --no forgiveness from deviation from course. None from laws of physics --- and if you survive it, usually none from authorities.
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