TheCurl84 said:

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Anonymous Source said:

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Man...thanks for clearing that up. I was afraid this was the start of a new normal.

Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy: "Obviously, it is not standard to have aircraft collide. I want to be clear on that." pic.twitter.com/MtVrku3GAL

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) January 30, 2025

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IMO Duffy messed up in his first big test. Saying that both flight paths were "normal" is not reassuring, at all. It makes me wonder why we haven't seen more of this happen. Surely it isn't "normal" to have helicopters crossing the take-off and landing paths of flights at DCA.

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TheCurl84 said:

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Anonymous Source said:

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Man...thanks for clearing that up. I was afraid this was the start of a new normal.

Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy: "Obviously, it is not standard to have aircraft collide. I want to be clear on that." pic.twitter.com/MtVrku3GAL

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) January 30, 2025

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IMO Duffy messed up in his first big test. Saying that both flight paths were "normal" is not reassuring, at all. It makes me wonder why we haven't seen more of this happen. Surely it isn't "normal" to have helicopters crossing the take-off and landing paths of flights at DCA.

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Catag94 said:

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TheCurl84 said:

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Anonymous Source said:

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Man...thanks for clearing that up. I was afraid this was the start of a new normal.

Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy: "Obviously, it is not standard to have aircraft collide. I want to be clear on that." pic.twitter.com/MtVrku3GAL

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) January 30, 2025

---

IMO Duffy messed up in his first big test. Saying that both flight paths were "normal" is not reassuring, at all. It makes me wonder why we haven't seen more of this happen. Surely it isn't "normal" to have helicopters crossing the take-off and landing paths of flights at DCA.

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As ETFan posted earlier in this thread, here is the published "standard" helicopter routes chart for the area.
Notice the DCA airport and the close proximity of routes 1 and 4 crossing departure/approach traffic patterns of runways 1/28 and 33/15.
Also notice the altitude restriction is at or below 200'.

All this to say, the heli route is standard.

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Bunk Moreland said:

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fullback44 said:

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bobbranco said:

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Supposedly an experienced Officer and CWO flying.

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That's cool and all but why did they deviate ? Seems some dummy wasn't paying attention, doesn't matter how much experience you have when you aren't paying attention or better yet do stupid stuff

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Why are you taking a random tweet as if it's verified fact? Helicopters that fly around on training missions and just in/around DC in general aren't following pre-scheduled flight paths often times like commercial airlines are.

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Kenneth_2003 said:

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LMCane said:

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annie88 said:

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That's scary. I flew internationally into that airport last year and then down to Houston. I fly a lot and I never really think about the dangers. They're still way less than cars, but it can be scary when they happen.

Actually, no I didn't, sorry I went through Dulles.

But this is horrible.

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Correct- Washington Dulles IAD is for international flights.

Washington Reagan National for domestic.

I have flown in and out of there a dozen times over the years and used to live right across the Potomac from the airport in Southwest Marina DC (back when it was crappy)

there was a crash into the Potomac back during Reagan during the winter which was even more awful.

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That was a an improper/insufficient de icing, yes?

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CanyonAg77 said:

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Back to the figure skaters

In 1961, the US Figure Skating Team lost 18 skaters and coaches in a plane crash. I believe they were traveling to Prague for a competition

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Catag94 said:

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Negative. It was at 375 from what I've seen.

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Quote:

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PAT25 reported having the traffic in sight. The question now is what traffic was he looking at, as it obviously was not the correct traffic.

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Kenneth_2003 said:

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TheCurl84 said:

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Anonymous Source said:

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Man...thanks for clearing that up. I was afraid this was the start of a new normal.

Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy: "Obviously, it is not standard to have aircraft collide. I want to be clear on that." pic.twitter.com/MtVrku3GAL

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) January 30, 2025

---

IMO Duffy messed up in his first big test. Saying that both flight paths were "normal" is not reassuring, at all. It makes me wonder why we haven't seen more of this happen. Surely it isn't "normal" to have helicopters crossing the take-off and landing paths of flights at DCA.

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I think it is very normal for those flight paths to cross. I don't know all of the specific rules for that crossing though. Blancolirio says the CRJ was flying the ILS for Runway 1 then doing a visual left base dogleg entry to 33, which is very common and considered "normal." PAT25 took off from Joint Base Boling and was operating under a procedure they use to cross the Potomac.

The helicopter was cleared to cross the path maintaining visual separation. PAT25 reported having the traffic in sight. The question now is what traffic was he looking at, as it obviously was not the correct traffic. There was another plane that took off from Ragan and another behind the CRJ.

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FireAg said:

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Man…the helo pilot says he sees the plane twice…and he asks for (and gets permission for) visual separation…

That leads on to think he was looking at the wrong aircraft…

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jacketman03 said:

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Catag94 said:

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Negative. It was at 375 from what I've seen.

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So the proximate cause of the collision was the helicopter's deviation from the altitude restriction.

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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Quote:

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PAT25 reported having the traffic in sight. The question now is what traffic was he looking at, as it obviously was not the correct traffic.

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He had AAL3130 in sight. The aircraft behind the one he crashed into.

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Martin Q. Blank said:

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FireAg said:

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Man…the helo pilot says he sees the plane twice…and he asks for (and gets permission for) visual separation…

That leads on to think he was looking at the wrong aircraft…

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Yes, AAL3130.

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Catag94 said:

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jacketman03 said:

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Catag94 said:

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Negative. It was at 375 from what I've seen.

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So the proximate cause of the collision was the helicopter's deviation from the altitude restriction.

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I think that had to be sited as a contributing factor. I doubt that's the only one.

It seems to me the separation in this area is already extremely tight making it quite risky. If runway 33 is seldom used, I would think the tower controller would have made a more concerted effort to ensure good separation in this situation. I suspect the ambient light will be a factor, the city lights combined with latitudes creating a visibility challenge, ATC's lack of vectoring to maintain separation (trusting the UH60 pilots a little too much) will all be factors. It's incredibly sad and was truly avoidable.

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CanyonAg77 said:

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Back to the figure skaters

In 1961, the US Figure Skating Team lost 18 skaters and coaches in a plane crash. I believe they were traveling to Prague for a competition

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FireAg said:

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Yeah, that's my uneducated guess…he thought he was supposed to avoid 3130, which was in the landing pattern behind 5342…

I'm still struggling with how he could miss 5342 which was so much closer…several experienced pilots on here have said that lights in the air at night can be confusing…so I guess that could be a likely explanation…

The other issue I'm having trouble squaring is whether or not the helo was above its flight ceiling…and if so…why?

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fullback44 said:

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Bunk Moreland said:

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fullback44 said:

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bobbranco said:

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Supposedly an experienced Officer and CWO flying.

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That's cool and all but why did they deviate ? Seems some dummy wasn't paying attention, doesn't matter how much experience you have when you aren't paying attention or better yet do stupid stuff

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Why are you taking a random tweet as if it's verified fact? Helicopters that fly around on training missions and just in/around DC in general aren't following pre-scheduled flight paths often times like commercial airlines are.

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Broooooo.. 100 % speculation like everyone on this board at this point.. some of you are insufferable on this… it's 100% opinion and it's my opinion broooo

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Catag94 said:

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jacketman03 said:

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Catag94 said:

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Negative. It was at 375 from what I've seen.

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So the proximate cause of the collision was the helicopter's deviation from the altitude restriction.

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I think that has to be sited as a contributing factor. I doubt that's the only one.

It seems to me the separation in this area is already extremely tight making it quite risky. If runway 33 is seldom used, I would think the tower controller would have made a more concerted effort to ensure good separation in this situation. I suspect the ambient light will be a factor, the city lights combined with latitudes creating a visibility challenge, ATC's lack of vectoring to maintain separation (trusting the UH60 pilots a little too much) will all be factors. It's incredibly sad and was truly avoidable.

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sts7049 said:

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right, from what i heard in blancolirio's video, it's not unusual to take the approach for 1 and dogleg into 33

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torrid said:

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sts7049 said:

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right, from what i heard in blancolirio's video, it's not unusual to take the approach for 1 and dogleg into 33

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It seems everything that was in motion last night was normal for the DC airspace. It's just a very crowded and busy airspace.

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GAC06 said:

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33 is less used than 1, but I wouldn't say it's "seldom used".

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jacketman03 said:

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Catag94 said:

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jacketman03 said:

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Catag94 said:

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Negative. It was at 375 from what I've seen.

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So the proximate cause of the collision was the helicopter's deviation from the altitude restriction.

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I think that had to be sited as a contributing factor. I doubt that's the only one.

It seems to me the separation in this area is already extremely tight making it quite risky. If runway 33 is seldom used, I would think the tower controller would have made a more concerted effort to ensure good separation in this situation. I suspect the ambient light will be a factor, the city lights combined with latitudes creating a visibility challenge, ATC's lack of vectoring to maintain separation (trusting the UH60 pilots a little too much) will all be factors. It's incredibly sad and was truly avoidable.

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If everything else was the exact same, and the helicopter pilot hadn't disregarded the altitude restriction, the collision would not have happened. Everything else is a contributing factor, but had the heli pilot been where they were supposed to be, no collision.

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AggieMD95 said:

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Catag94 said:

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TheCurl84 said:

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Anonymous Source said:

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Man...thanks for clearing that up. I was afraid this was the start of a new normal.

Transportation Secretary Sean Duffy: "Obviously, it is not standard to have aircraft collide. I want to be clear on that." pic.twitter.com/MtVrku3GAL

— Aaron Rupar (@atrupar) January 30, 2025

---

IMO Duffy messed up in his first big test. Saying that both flight paths were "normal" is not reassuring, at all. It makes me wonder why we haven't seen more of this happen. Surely it isn't "normal" to have helicopters crossing the take-off and landing paths of flights at DCA.

---

As ETFan posted earlier in this thread, here is the published "standard" helicopter routes chart for the area.
Notice the DCA airport and the close proximity of routes 1 and 4 crossing departure/approach traffic patterns of runways 1/28 and 33/15.
Also notice the altitude restriction is at or below 200'.

All this to say, the heli route is standard.

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Did collision occur at or below 200 ft ?

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