regional jet crash? (American Airlines) at Reagan (DCA)

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Pinochet
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In reply to Prosperdick • 9:50p, 1/29/25
Prosperdick said:
Rapier108 said:
bthotugigem05 said:
deddog said:
FireAg said:
titan said:
ETFan said:
ATC asks PAT25 (the heli) if they have the crj in sight twice with no response then impact a bit later.
That points toward Annie's idea of medical event perhaps. It also does increase the odds of intentional (or again, too mulish about some `ops' mission to respond)

Blackhawks have two pilots, correct? So it would have to be a medical for both, no? Seems highly unlikely…
But they might have been distracted in the cockpit because of other issues? It was dusk, so it's posible they didn't see the CRJ?
That's going to be the question. Looked like the CRJ was on a fairly typical glide path into DCA. Not sure whether the helo thought the jet was moving faster than it was or what.
Or the helo pilot thought he was supposed to be avoiding the other aircraft, and didn't see the approaching CRJ.

Wouldn't be the first time a pilot was told avoid an aircraft, but looked at a different one than ATC was referring to, thought he was good, and when crunch. PSA 182 comes to mind.
In the video there's another larger aircraft that might have been what the pilot mistook for what ATC was relaying but why not even acknowledge, especially a second time. If that last part is true it does start to lean towards something more sinister.

ATC wouldn't have told him to pass behind if he didn't acknowledge having it in sight. ATC is simulcasting and liveatc only gets the VHF frequency.
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Who?mikejones!
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In reply to BadMoonRisin • 9:51p, 1/29/25
Its a gold top, vip service.

Quote:
high ups such as the Secretary of Defense, Joint Chiefs Of Staff, the Pentagon's civilian leadership and others will often use one of the military's little known flying limousine fleets, the VIP converted VH-60 Black Hawks of the Army's 12th Aviation Battalion's Executive Flight Detachment.

Although the unit also flies UH-72A Lakotas and conventional UH-60 Black Hawks, their VIP fleet, known as "Gold Tops," are some of the most luxurious helicopters under the command of the Department of Defense, even rivaling the president's fleet of VH-60N and VH-3D "White Tops" flown my Marine Helicopter Squadron HMX-1.

The 12th Aviation Battalion also flies other government officials, agency heads and high-up DoD bosses, and even key lawmakers and visiting dignitaries under certain conditions. As such, scheduling can be challenging to say the least.
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FireAg
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In reply to titan • 9:51p, 1/29/25
AG
titan said:
Charlie 31 said:
Who?mikejones! said:


Gotta wonder if anyone was on the helo
I have been wondering the same thing.

How did that helicopter fly straight into that plane unless there was intent to crash into the plane?

This looks like it was a targeted crash.
It may look that way, but you really need to consider how narrow the window to T-bone the approaching jet is --- especially with a chopper trying to get it at right angles.

Or are you thinking unmanned? More a "turned into a missile" ?

Would it be hard to fly in front of the plane…so the plant t-bones the helo?
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Kansas Kid
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In reply to CanyonAg77 • 9:51p, 1/29/25
CanyonAg77 said:
I'm saying 99.99999999% likely NOT intentional.

Pretty darn hard to run over a jet with a helicopter. Despite the video, I'm guessing the helo was on a crossing route and the jet came down on it as it descended for landing

There is a new dashcam video that CBS showed that shows a much better angle. High speed rate of closure with the plane and helicopter heading in totally different directions. The original video makes it look like a t-bone but that is because of the angle of the plane flying. This video makes it look clearly like an accident.
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titan
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In reply to Pinochet • 9:51p, 1/29/25
S
Pinochet said:
Catag94 said:
I suspect passing behind AND below is more what FAA had in mind.

Doubt it. That's more dangerous because neither of you can see each other. And ATC doesn't want people changing altitudes in that scenario.
Right. Also, a chopper can pause and hover at will if it must. It would be stupid to vector it so close to a landing jet. Just wait till the air space path is clear.
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Pinochet
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In reply to HowdyTAMU • 9:52p, 1/29/25
HowdyTAMU said:
Pinochet said:
Catag94 said:
Gordo14 said:
The Kraken said:
HowdyTAMU said:
TCAS should have been screaming at both pilots telling them how to maneuver and avoid. I fear the worst as the helo should have been able to take evasive measures.


Do military helicopters have TCAS?


Even if they did that's not really a place where TCAS would work. There was no room for both aircraft to maneuver at that altitude.

100% this is ATC or the helicopter. We will probably know the answet by tomorrow as someone is already breaking down the ATC trnasmissions.


Agreed. I cannot image a scenario where any aircraft would ever be cleared to transition an ILS approach path to a runway at the approach altitude. Helo should not have been there or even planning to transition that space.
Should have been further out at that altitude Or over the runway centerline, but that's not possible given other runways.

What are you talking about? That was a visual approach. That happens all the time and the UH-60 was told by the controller to pass behind the RJ. My money is on those guys identifying the wrong RJ and the accident aircraft being in their blind spot. Not sure about RJs, but TAs are turned off below 400 on the airbus, so they wouldn't have gotten the traffic callout in their cockpit either.


CRJ's landing light is bright and the Black Hawk has so many windows, there's no way they didn't see the plane. Worst case, look for the strobes and the red nav light.

Tell me you've never been in the cockpit of a small plane looking for traffic without telling me. Can't see through the floor of the RJ and seeing something at night (or above you through solid mass) is pretty tough.
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FTAG 2000
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9:52p, 1/29/25
AG
Think it's highly likely chopper pilots thought the plane that had already passed their position is the one ATC referred to.

Much more likely than anything nefarious.
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Charlie 31
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In reply to titan • 9:52p, 1/29/25
AG
titan said:
Charlie 31 said:
Who?mikejones! said:


Gotta wonder if anyone was on the helo
I have been wondering the same thing.

How did that helicopter fly straight into that plane unless there was intent to crash into the plane?

This looks like it was a targeted crash.
It may look that way, but you really need to consider how narrow the window to T-bone the approaching jet is --- especially with a chopper trying to get it at right angles.

Or are you thinking unmanned? More a "turned into a missile" ?
I do not want to over-speculate at this point. Still, I keep thinking from watching the video that somebody flying the helicopter intended to crash into the plane, either unmanned or by turning the helicopter into a missile.
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Stat Monitor Repairman
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9:53p, 1/29/25
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Who?mikejones!
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9:53p, 1/29/25
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Silvertaps
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9:54p, 1/29/25
AG
My neighbor is a SWA pilot and has been on phone with AA friends.
He said the space is restricted below you. He just listened to the ATC recording. They told the helicopter to go behind the plane. Obviously he didn't do that.

He also said he's not surprised as military do a lot of crossings there.
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ReturnOfTheAg
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In reply to HowdyTAMU • 9:54p, 1/29/25
AG
HowdyTAMU said:
Pinochet said:
Catag94 said:
Gordo14 said:
The Kraken said:
HowdyTAMU said:
TCAS should have been screaming at both pilots telling them how to maneuver and avoid. I fear the worst as the helo should have been able to take evasive measures.


Do military helicopters have TCAS?


Even if they did that's not really a place where TCAS would work. There was no room for both aircraft to maneuver at that altitude.

100% this is ATC or the helicopter. We will probably know the answet by tomorrow as someone is already breaking down the ATC trnasmissions.


Agreed. I cannot image a scenario where any aircraft would ever be cleared to transition an ILS approach path to a runway at the approach altitude. Helo should not have been there or even planning to transition that space.
Should have been further out at that altitude Or over the runway centerline, but that's not possible given other runways.

What are you talking about? That was a visual approach. That happens all the time and the UH-60 was told by the controller to pass behind the RJ. My money is on those guys identifying the wrong RJ and the accident aircraft being in their blind spot. Not sure about RJs, but TAs are turned off below 400 on the airbus, so they wouldn't have gotten the traffic callout in their cockpit either.


CRJ's landing light is bright and the Black Hawk has so many windows, there's no way they didn't see the plane. Worst case, look for the strobes and the red nav light.


You think they have windows on the roof?

Very well could have come down on top of him
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ETFan
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In reply to Pinochet • 9:54p, 1/29/25
Pinochet said:
Catag94 said:
Gordo14 said:
The Kraken said:
HowdyTAMU said:
TCAS should have been screaming at both pilots telling them how to maneuver and avoid. I fear the worst as the helo should have been able to take evasive measures.


Do military helicopters have TCAS?


Even if they did that's not really a place where TCAS would work. There was no room for both aircraft to maneuver at that altitude.

100% this is ATC or the helicopter. We will probably know the answet by tomorrow as someone is already breaking down the ATC trnasmissions.


Agreed. I cannot image a scenario where any aircraft would ever be cleared to transition an ILS approach path to a runway at the approach altitude. Helo should not have been there or even planning to transition that space.
Should have been further out at that altitude Or over the runway centerline, but that's not possible given other runways.

What are you talking about? That was a visual approach. That happens all the time and the UH-60 was told by the controller to pass behind the RJ. My money is on those guys identifying the wrong RJ and the accident aircraft being in their blind spot. Not sure about RJs, but TAs are turned off below 400 on the airbus, so they wouldn't have gotten the traffic callout in their cockpit either.


I don't have much knowledge of tcas or big birds, would being in TA mode on visual just produce call outs and no corrections? So, in a congested airspace it becomes (potentially) an annoyance with no automated maneuvering.
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The Kraken
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9:54p, 1/29/25
AG
Reporter on CNN saying Pentagon officials say the Blackhawk was from Ft Belvoir.
plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
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Horn_in_Aggieland
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9:55p, 1/29/25
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titan
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In reply to Charlie 31 • 9:56p, 1/29/25
S
Charlie 31 said:
titan said:
Charlie 31 said:
Who?mikejones! said:


Gotta wonder if anyone was on the helo
I have been wondering the same thing.

How did that helicopter fly straight into that plane unless there was intent to crash into the plane?

This looks like it was a targeted crash.
It may look that way, but you really need to consider how narrow the window to T-bone the approaching jet is --- especially with a chopper trying to get it at right angles.

Or are you thinking unmanned? More a "turned into a missile" ?
I do not want to over-speculate at this point. Still, I keep thinking from watching the video that somebody flying the helicopter intended to crash into the plane, either unmanned or by turning the helicopter into a missile.
There is 50/50 chance that could be true in this sense --- Personally I believe scenario (A) at the moment: the jet t-boned the chopper, or more precisely, smashed it like an egg (bus on railroad) and then itself crashed into the water after the explosion; or (B) your scenario requires that the chopper successfully T-bones the jet -- times it just perfect and hits it rather than being hit.

It is 50/50 because we don't yet know which happened. But that is not saying the odds are equally likely.
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HowdyTAMU
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In reply to Pinochet • 9:56p, 1/29/25
AG
Pinochet said:
HowdyTAMU said:
Pinochet said:
Catag94 said:
Gordo14 said:
The Kraken said:
HowdyTAMU said:
TCAS should have been screaming at both pilots telling them how to maneuver and avoid. I fear the worst as the helo should have been able to take evasive measures.


Do military helicopters have TCAS?


Even if they did that's not really a place where TCAS would work. There was no room for both aircraft to maneuver at that altitude.

100% this is ATC or the helicopter. We will probably know the answet by tomorrow as someone is already breaking down the ATC trnasmissions.


Agreed. I cannot image a scenario where any aircraft would ever be cleared to transition an ILS approach path to a runway at the approach altitude. Helo should not have been there or even planning to transition that space.
Should have been further out at that altitude Or over the runway centerline, but that's not possible given other runways.

What are you talking about? That was a visual approach. That happens all the time and the UH-60 was told by the controller to pass behind the RJ. My money is on those guys identifying the wrong RJ and the accident aircraft being in their blind spot. Not sure about RJs, but TAs are turned off below 400 on the airbus, so they wouldn't have gotten the traffic callout in their cockpit either.


CRJ's landing light is bright and the Black Hawk has so many windows, there's no way they didn't see the plane. Worst case, look for the strobes and the red nav light.

Tell me you've never been in the cockpit of a small plane looking for traffic without telling me. Can't see through the floor of the RJ and seeing something at night (or above you through solid mass) is pretty tough.


I probably have more IFR hours than you have PIC. Read my comment again. It's about the helo, not the plane. I bet you say, "Roger that" to ATC too.
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zgolfz85
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In reply to Horn_in_Aggieland • 9:56p, 1/29/25
AG
Horn_in_Aggieland said:


That's the creepiest thing I've ever heard
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W
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9:58p, 1/29/25
AG
holy smokes
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Kansas Kid
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In reply to HowdyTAMU • 9:59p, 1/29/25
HowdyTAMU said:
Pinochet said:
HowdyTAMU said:
Pinochet said:
Catag94 said:
Gordo14 said:
The Kraken said:
HowdyTAMU said:
TCAS should have been screaming at both pilots telling them how to maneuver and avoid. I fear the worst as the helo should have been able to take evasive measures.


Do military helicopters have TCAS?


Even if they did that's not really a place where TCAS would work. There was no room for both aircraft to maneuver at that altitude.

100% this is ATC or the helicopter. We will probably know the answet by tomorrow as someone is already breaking down the ATC trnasmissions.


Agreed. I cannot image a scenario where any aircraft would ever be cleared to transition an ILS approach path to a runway at the approach altitude. Helo should not have been there or even planning to transition that space.
Should have been further out at that altitude Or over the runway centerline, but that's not possible given other runways.

What are you talking about? That was a visual approach. That happens all the time and the UH-60 was told by the controller to pass behind the RJ. My money is on those guys identifying the wrong RJ and the accident aircraft being in their blind spot. Not sure about RJs, but TAs are turned off below 400 on the airbus, so they wouldn't have gotten the traffic callout in their cockpit either.


CRJ's landing light is bright and the Black Hawk has so many windows, there's no way they didn't see the plane. Worst case, look for the strobes and the red nav light.

Tell me you've never been in the cockpit of a small plane looking for traffic without telling me. Can't see through the floor of the RJ and seeing something at night (or above you through solid mass) is pretty tough.


I probably have more IFR hours than you have PIC. Read my comment again. It's about the helo, not the plane. I bet you say, "Roger that" to ATC too.

Based on ATC audio, it seems to confirm your thought that they saw it. I'm guessing they misjudged speed and altitude but that is clearly pure speculation on my part.
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Pinochet
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In reply to ETFan • 10:00p, 1/29/25
ETFan said:
Pinochet said:
Catag94 said:
Gordo14 said:
The Kraken said:
HowdyTAMU said:
TCAS should have been screaming at both pilots telling them how to maneuver and avoid. I fear the worst as the helo should have been able to take evasive measures.


Do military helicopters have TCAS?


Even if they did that's not really a place where TCAS would work. There was no room for both aircraft to maneuver at that altitude.

100% this is ATC or the helicopter. We will probably know the answet by tomorrow as someone is already breaking down the ATC trnasmissions.


Agreed. I cannot image a scenario where any aircraft would ever be cleared to transition an ILS approach path to a runway at the approach altitude. Helo should not have been there or even planning to transition that space.
Should have been further out at that altitude Or over the runway centerline, but that's not possible given other runways.

What are you talking about? That was a visual approach. That happens all the time and the UH-60 was told by the controller to pass behind the RJ. My money is on those guys identifying the wrong RJ and the accident aircraft being in their blind spot. Not sure about RJs, but TAs are turned off below 400 on the airbus, so they wouldn't have gotten the traffic callout in their cockpit either.


I don't have much knowledge of tcas or big birds, would being in TA mode on visual just produce call outs and no corrections? So, in a congested airspace it becomes (potentially) an annoyance with no automated maneuvering.

Yes, if you're getting traffic advisories constantly, they're not helpful. Resolution advisories don't typically have automated maneuvering, just instructions on how to maneuver.
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EX TEXASEX
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In reply to Harry Stone • 10:00p, 1/29/25
Harry Stone said:
From the video it looks like that helicopter targeted the plane. Hope Im wrong. I hate this.
I wonder if you are right. The helicopter had their ADS turned off!!!
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FireAg
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In reply to CanyonAg77 • 10:00p, 1/29/25
AG
CanyonAg77 said:
I'm saying 99.99999999% likely NOT intentional.

Pretty darn hard to run over a jet with a helicopter. Despite the video, I'm guessing the helo was on a crossing route and the jet came down on it as it descended for landing

How could they have not seen the lights from the plane, though? That's what I'm having trouble squaring in my head…

Blackhawks have a good amount of window visibility, and there is a good 20+ seconds on the video of the helo flying straight toward the plane's approach path…

Is it reasonable they would have simply not seen the lights from the airplane? And couple that with the ATC traffic warning them (allegedly) twice without (allegedly) any response?

I don't know these answers…hoping someone else can square it…
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Kansas Kid
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10:01p, 1/29/25
Wichita mayor and airport manager starting a news conference.
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FireAg
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In reply to Stat Monitor Repairman • 10:02p, 1/29/25
AG
Stat Monitor Repairman said:

So the helo did acknowledge? If so, then that points toward accident, which is the best of the worst case scenarios…
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Pinochet
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In reply to HowdyTAMU • 10:02p, 1/29/25
HowdyTAMU said:
Pinochet said:
HowdyTAMU said:
Pinochet said:
Catag94 said:
Gordo14 said:
The Kraken said:
HowdyTAMU said:
TCAS should have been screaming at both pilots telling them how to maneuver and avoid. I fear the worst as the helo should have been able to take evasive measures.


Do military helicopters have TCAS?


Even if they did that's not really a place where TCAS would work. There was no room for both aircraft to maneuver at that altitude.

100% this is ATC or the helicopter. We will probably know the answet by tomorrow as someone is already breaking down the ATC trnasmissions.


Agreed. I cannot image a scenario where any aircraft would ever be cleared to transition an ILS approach path to a runway at the approach altitude. Helo should not have been there or even planning to transition that space.
Should have been further out at that altitude Or over the runway centerline, but that's not possible given other runways.

What are you talking about? That was a visual approach. That happens all the time and the UH-60 was told by the controller to pass behind the RJ. My money is on those guys identifying the wrong RJ and the accident aircraft being in their blind spot. Not sure about RJs, but TAs are turned off below 400 on the airbus, so they wouldn't have gotten the traffic callout in their cockpit either.


CRJ's landing light is bright and the Black Hawk has so many windows, there's no way they didn't see the plane. Worst case, look for the strobes and the red nav light.

Tell me you've never been in the cockpit of a small plane looking for traffic without telling me. Can't see through the floor of the RJ and seeing something at night (or above you through solid mass) is pretty tough.


I probably have more IFR hours than you have PIC. Read my comment again. It's about the helo, not the plane. I bet you say, "Roger that" to ATC too.

Easy there turbo. Go tell someone you're checking in.
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TxAG#2011
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10:03p, 1/29/25
Why on earth would any aircraft ever be allowed through the flight path of a major commercial airport relying on visuals...

Sickening stuff
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Rockdoc
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10:04p, 1/29/25
AG
Would also like to add as a former pilot, albeit small private planes, looking downward at night in a highly congested urban area, it can be very hard to pick out aircraft marker lights. Especially a helicopter.
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Stat Monitor Repairman
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In reply to Horn_in_Aggieland • 10:05p, 1/29/25
Horn_in_Aggieland said:


What are we looking at at :04 on the video immediately before the collision.

Play at .5x speed.
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titan
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In reply to EX TEXASEX • 10:05p, 1/29/25
S
EX TEXASEX said:
Harry Stone said:
From the video it looks like that helicopter targeted the plane. Hope Im wrong. I hate this.
I wonder if you are right. The helicopter had their ADS turned off!!!
What? You mean it should have been shot down? (New rules)
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Gunny456
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In reply to CanyonAg77 • 10:05p, 1/29/25
AG
This.
Agree that the aircraft could have descended upon the helo. And helo could not have had any visual of the jet directly above them.
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fullback44
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In reply to TxAG#2011 • 10:05p, 1/29/25
AG
TxAG#2011 said:
Why on earth would any aircraft ever be allowed through the flight path of a major commercial airport relying on visuals...

Sickening stuff
Yeah this seems pretty crazy to let these Helos cross the paths of a major US city runway path.. seems like an accident waiting to happen
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aggiehawg
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In reply to ReturnOfTheAg • 10:05p, 1/29/25
AG
Quote:
You think they have windows on the roof?

Very well could have come down on top of him
You think they don't have multidirectional displays?
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agAngeldad
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In reply to titan • 10:06p, 1/29/25
titan said:
agAngeldad said:
bthotugigem05 said:
Yes. It happens. ATC controls class B airspace from 0 to 10000 feet. They are in charge of coordinating all that traffic. It's why DCA controllers are considered some of the best, so much traffic coming and going at all hours.


I wouldn't say "BEST". I have known a few. They are tower controllers and they (DCA) do not have the same training as busy tower or radar controllers. However, I wouldn't blame this on ATC just yet.
No, in fact, despite the fact that it is one of the three best explanations, now leaning away from ATC error --- if they were hailing the copter about seeing the crj, they were aware of the situation. This was a case of the helo is ignoring them.


In Class B airspace ATC should have issued traffic well in advance of any conflict. There is a conflict alert function on radar scopes that flash and alarm if project collision exist. However, they are normally disabled that close to the airport. The only real question for ATC, is did that issue traffic well in Advance and did pilot report traffic in sight.
"If you got to tell em who you are, you ain't"
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titan
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In reply to Stat Monitor Repairman • 10:06p, 1/29/25
S
Stat Monitor Repairman said:
Horn_in_Aggieland said:


What are we looking at at :04 on the video immediately before the collision.

Play at .5x speed.
Looks like it speeded up! May have been deliberate.
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