regional jet crash? (American Airlines) at Reagan (DCA)

189,897 Views | 1557 Replies | Last: 18 hrs ago by titan
JFABNRGR
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In reply to Martin Q. Blank • 10:45a, 1/30/25
AG
Martin Q. Blank said:
FireAg said:
Man…the helo pilot says he sees the plane twice…and he asks for (and gets permission for) visual separation…

That leads on to think he was looking at the wrong aircraft…
Yes, AAL3130.




Isn't there a plane that just took off from 1?

Its position should be added to this graphic as well.

I think this is going to be the prime example of the swiss cheese model for catastrophe. Helo deviated from route procedure, last minute runway change, night time, busy, then maybe the biggest COMPLACENCY. ATC has seen proximal rotary wing traffic close to incoming/outgoing traffic thousands of times and never an issue. He asks PAT25 2X if he has visual on AA even after being told yes. That tells me he is looking at his screen and red flags are going off but he is in denial because it worked 10,000 other times.
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aviationag
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10:48a, 1/30/25
AG
No one knows all the facts yet. Please do not speculate. We use the 'Swiss cheese' metaphor for a reason.

I hate that Pres Trump is going off script here. He has been doing so well and this is ridiculous. He does not know airspace rules or procedures and should only discuss this at a high level. He is correct about the hiring practices but at this time there is not yet any indication that that is an issue here.

He should put all the resources of the government behind find the cause and developing corrective actions. And finding an FAA Administrator.

This is a tragedy as ALL accidents are. Helicopter traffic up and down the Potomac has been part of daily operations and the procedures and airspace design include those operations as factors.

This is very personal for those of us who work in this business.

Prayers for all.
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aviationag
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10:50a, 1/30/25
AG
And it is altitude, not elevation.

I support our President but this is a misstep in my opinion.
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Deleted User
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10:55a, 1/30/25
AG
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redcrayon
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In reply to aviationag • 10:56a, 1/30/25
AG
It's okay to speculate here. It's doesn't change what happened and doesn't impact the investigation.
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v1rotate92
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11:00a, 1/30/25
AG
I don't like blaming any of these flight crews or the controller. If we want to start blaming anyone its probably the FAA. Probably a history of FSAP near miss reports that the feds have received over the last decade. Why rely on one crew's visual ID? How about corridors the helos transit 5 miles north and south of DCA at 300' AGL where no airliner would be.
Slick
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aggiehawg
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In reply to aviationag • 11:06a, 1/30/25
AG
Quote:
This is a tragedy as ALL accidents are. Helicopter traffic up and down the Potomac has been part of daily operations and the procedures and airspace design include those operations as factors.
From my understanding thus far, Reagan's location is rimmed by other sensitive locations such as the WH, Pentagon, military bases, etc. Thus the airspace design and procedures are far more complicated due to that. Additionally, volume of traffic at Reagan has greatly increased since 9/11. Same with military training flights, post 9/11.

Part of the increase in traffic at Reagan is due to members of Congress (House and Senate) want direct flights back home at Reagan because it is much more convenient for them in terms of time saved instead of full commercial flights which use their hub systems for multiple stops, maybe plane changes, etc.

So at what volume level do the procedures and airspace design become impossible given that location in DC?
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Moderator
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11:07a, 1/30/25
Staff
We've cleaned this thread up. This thread will be discussion on the unfolding news of the crash and investigation. Please take the politics and commentary around what political figures are saying about the crash to another thread. Thanks.
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LMCane
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11:07a, 1/30/25
has anyone explained exactly WHY a dangerous Army training mission (Hegseth's words)

has to be conducted on a CIVILIAN AIRPORT?

when there is Fort McNair, Joint Base Bolling and Fort Myer they could use within 10 minutes flight time?!
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Muy
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In reply to Moderator • 11:09a, 1/30/25
AG
Moderator said:
We've cleaned this thread up. This thread will be discussion on the unfolding news of the crash and investigation. Please take the politics and commentary around what political figures are saying about the crash to another thread. Thanks.


While we don't want this derailed into politics, this is a political forum and the accident is already being politicized by both sides and could be discussed here.

[Read more closely. The subject can be discussed on the forum. Just do it on a thread covering that subject. Decades of experience tells us that talking about aviation crashes or any other unfolding news of tragic events AND the politics surrounding them is best done on two separate threads. Thanks. -Staff]
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titan
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In reply to LMCane • 11:10a, 1/30/25
S
LMCane said:
has anyone explained exactly WHY a dangerous Army training mission (Hegseth's words)

has to be conducted on a CIVILIAN AIRPORT?

when there is Fort McNair, Joint Base Bolling and Fort Myer they could use within 10 minutes flight time?!
Yes, that's the element that arguably could change easier and faster than Congress not using Reagan commercially.
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Naveronski
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In reply to LMCane • 11:10a, 1/30/25
AG
LMCane said:
has anyone explained exactly WHY a dangerous Army training mission (Hegseth's words)

has to be conducted on a CIVILIAN AIRPORT?

when there is Fort McNair, Joint Base Bolling and Fort Myer they could use within 10 minutes flight time?!
They were flying route four, a common helicopter flight path for the area. They weren't training at the airport.

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v1rotate92
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11:12a, 1/30/25
AG
Don't misinterpret "training mission"
Does not mean low qualified or inexperienced. Training mission means not on an operational mission and most military flights are training. Even our military flyover flights at sporting events are often under "training"
Slick
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Naveronski
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In reply to Harry Stone • 11:13a, 1/30/25
AG
Harry Stone said:
From the video it looks like that helicopter targeted the plane. Hope Im wrong. I hate this.
Anti-aircraft helicopter attack.
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SirDippinDots
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In reply to v1rotate92 • 11:18a, 1/30/25
v1rotate92 said:
Don't misinterpret "training mission"
Does not mean low qualified or inexperienced. Training mission means not on an operational mission and most military flights are training. Even our military flyover flights at sporting events are often under "training"


Hegsworth said experienced HC crew.
I wish a buck was still silver, it was back, when the country was strong.
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SirDippinDots
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In reply to fc2112 • 11:19a, 1/30/25
fc2112 said:
Lotta shade being thrown at ATC by the helo pilots while it seems pretty evident the helo pilot f'd up by flying at the wrong altitude.


Agree but does ATC not know the HC altitude? Should ATC not have told HC to descend below 200 ft?
I wish a buck was still silver, it was back, when the country was strong.
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v1rotate92
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11:19a, 1/30/25
AG
Please stop with the insane conspiracy crap. Mid air collisions would probably be an annual event if not for TCAS. Relying on a pilot's visual ID of other aircraft in a congested airspace with no backup is guaranteed to result in an occasional mid air. Amazingly, the FAA allows commercial flights with an inoperable TCAS. Pilots often refuse
Slick
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chickencoupe16
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In reply to LMCane • 11:20a, 1/30/25
AG
LMCane said:
has anyone explained exactly WHY a dangerous Army training mission (Hegseth's words)

has to be conducted on a CIVILIAN AIRPORT?

when there is Fort McNair, Joint Base Bolling and Fort Myer they could use within 10 minutes flight time?!
Depends on what the mission was. Perhaps the training part of it was to learn the route. You can pretend fly the route over a different area and you can fly the route in a simulator, but nothing replaces actually flying the route.

The real question is why/what part did Hegseth call it dangerous?
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Deleted User
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In reply to v1rotate92 • 11:22a, 1/30/25
AG
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Pinochet
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In reply to SirDippinDots • 11:29a, 1/30/25
SirDippinDots said:
fc2112 said:
Lotta shade being thrown at ATC by the helo pilots while it seems pretty evident the helo pilot f'd up by flying at the wrong altitude.


Agree but does ATC not know the HC altitude? Should ATC not have told HC to descend below 200 ft?

Actually, no, they generally only have the unadjusted encoded altitude.
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SirDippinDots
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In reply to Pinochet • 11:33a, 1/30/25
Pinochet said:
SirDippinDots said:
fc2112 said:
Lotta shade being thrown at ATC by the helo pilots while it seems pretty evident the helo pilot f'd up by flying at the wrong altitude.


Agree but does ATC not know the HC altitude? Should ATC not have told HC to descend below 200 ft?

Actually, no, they generally only have the unadjusted encoded altitude.


Not sure I know about that but if some unadjusted altitude disagrees with the HC crew's reported altitude should they not question? Should HC not be giving their altitude to ATC when they are near runy with AC approaching?
I wish a buck was still silver, it was back, when the country was strong.
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WolfCall
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11:33a, 1/30/25
AG
Was there a discussion about lighting of the Potomac during the rescue efforts? Were they using parachute flares? I didn't see any evidence of flares overhead.

It just seemed so dark on the Potomac.
I voted for this because I like Mean Tweets!
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BBRex
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In reply to Deleted User • 11:35a, 1/30/25
AG
Prime0882 said:
v1rotate92 said:
Don't misinterpret "training mission"
Does not mean low qualified or inexperienced. Training mission means not on an operational mission and most military flights are training. Even our military flyover flights at sporting events are often under "training"
Pretty sure they are now "practice missions." Trump said during the presser they call it "practice." Hegseth just ran back over to the Pentagon to Ctrl F - Ctrl R all variations of the word "training" in DoD policies with the word practice.
"The names and ranks of the three Black Hawk crew members will be withheld for now as next of kin notifications are ongoing, Defense Secretary Hegseth said.

The unit involved in the crash were of the Bravo Company, 12th Aviation Battalion and were flying out of Fort Belvoir, he said. The crew were taking part in their annual proficiency training flight and were undergoing night evaluation. They were also fitted with night vision goggles, he said."

https://www.npr.org/2025/01/30/nx-s1-5280198/plane-crash-washington-dc-helicopter-potomac

I wonder if the pilot was someone who is more manager than aviator now but who was trying to keep up his rating?
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chickencoupe16
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In reply to BBRex • 11:40a, 1/30/25
AG
BBRex said:
Prime0882 said:
v1rotate92 said:
Don't misinterpret "training mission"
Does not mean low qualified or inexperienced. Training mission means not on an operational mission and most military flights are training. Even our military flyover flights at sporting events are often under "training"
Pretty sure they are now "practice missions." Trump said during the presser they call it "practice." Hegseth just ran back over to the Pentagon to Ctrl F - Ctrl R all variations of the word "training" in DoD policies with the word practice.
"The names and ranks of the three Black Hawk crew members will be withheld for now as next of kin notifications are ongoing, Defense Secretary Hegseth said.

The unit involved in the crash were of the Bravo Company, 12th Aviation Battalion and were flying out of Fort Belvoir, he said. The crew were taking part in their annual proficiency training flight and were undergoing night evaluation. They were also fitted with night vision goggles, he said."

https://www.npr.org/2025/01/30/nx-s1-5280198/plane-crash-washington-dc-helicopter-potomac

I wonder if the pilot was someone who is more manager than aviator now but who was trying to keep up his rating?
Even if the pilot in command was low on recent hours, there was a co-pilot. I'm assuming the third was a crew chief which would make the co-pilot the evaluator for the training. The evaluator would likely have been flying a decent bit.
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torrid
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In reply to LMCane • 11:45a, 1/30/25
AG
LMCane said:
has anyone explained exactly WHY a dangerous Army training mission (Hegseth's words)

has to be conducted on a CIVILIAN AIRPORT?

when there is Fort McNair, Joint Base Bolling and Fort Myer they could use within 10 minutes flight time?!
Again, this is the nature of DC airspace with a busy, close-in airport and military helicopters frequently shuttling government VIPs around. This was probably training to operate specifically in DC airspace. And yes, they may need to re-think their training.
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BBRex
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In reply to chickencoupe16 • 11:45a, 1/30/25
AG
Good points. My dad retired as a CW4 and was an IP, and he sure didn't have a lot of trust in anyone who didn't fly everyday, whether military or civilian.
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agAngeldad
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In reply to Pinochet • 11:47a, 1/30/25
Pinochet said:
SirDippinDots said:
fc2112 said:
Lotta shade being thrown at ATC by the helo pilots while it seems pretty evident the helo pilot f'd up by flying at the wrong altitude.


Agree but does ATC not know the HC altitude? Should ATC not have told HC to descend below 200 ft?

Actually, no, they generally only have the unadjusted encoded altitude.


Never heard that before. POYA?
"If you got to tell em who you are, you ain't"
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The Fall Guy
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11:52a, 1/30/25
AG
Let the investigation happen. Not even close to 24 hours and the political ass throwing each way.

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Artorias
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11:52a, 1/30/25
AG
Why do we even have training flight routes that intersect takeoff/landing flights paths at public airports?
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Rapier108
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11:55a, 1/30/25
"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves." - Sir Winston Churchill
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Duckhook
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In reply to aggiehawg • 11:57a, 1/30/25
AG
aggiehawg said:
Quote:
This is a tragedy as ALL accidents are. Helicopter traffic up and down the Potomac has been part of daily operations and the procedures and airspace design include those operations as factors.


Part of the increase in traffic at Reagan is due to members of Congress (House and Senate) want direct flights back home at Reagan because it is much more convenient for them in terms of time saved instead of full commercial flights which use their hub systems for multiple stops, maybe plane changes, etc.

I checked with a buddy of mine in Kansas who used to be kind of politically connected to make sure he wasn't on the flight. He wasn't, but he says that route exists largely because of Kansas politicians pushing for it.
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chickencoupe16
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In reply to Duckhook • 11:58a, 1/30/25
AG
Duckhook said:
aggiehawg said:
Quote:
This is a tragedy as ALL accidents are. Helicopter traffic up and down the Potomac has been part of daily operations and the procedures and airspace design include those operations as factors.


Part of the increase in traffic at Reagan is due to members of Congress (House and Senate) want direct flights back home at Reagan because it is much more convenient for them in terms of time saved instead of full commercial flights which use their hub systems for multiple stops, maybe plane changes, etc.

I checked with a buddy of mine in Kansas who used to be kind of politically connected to make sure he wasn't on the flight. He wasn't, but he says that route exists largely because of Kansas politicians pushing for it.
One of the congressmen from Kansas mentioned during last night's press conference how he had lobbied for the flight.
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ETFan
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In reply to Artorias • 11:58a, 1/30/25
Artorias said:
Why do we even have training flight routes that intersect takeoff/landing flights paths at public airports?
It's not a training route, it's a just a route. The approach to 33 has a final fix/turn at 490' that descends to the runway at ~13'.


Someone with access to foreflight give me the profile from IDTEK to the TDZE at 13'. Wondering what the clearance is there with an aircraft on approach and heli at the 200' max on route 4.

EDIT: Not that it matters. These clearances have been approved by the FAA and it's not some willy nilly thing. I'm just curious. Obviously the heli was out of place according to the charts.
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aggiehawg
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In reply to Duckhook • 12:04p, 1/30/25
AG
Quote:
I checked with a buddy of mine in Kansas who used to be kind of politically connected to make sure he wasn't on the flight. He wasn't, but he says that route exists largely because of Kansas politicians pushing for it.
Watched Halperin's morning show. That topic of how politicians got an expansion of Reagan, adding more gates for those direct flights for themselves, was discussed at length.

Why I asked if the resulting additional volume of flights at that location has made it unsafe for adequate air space design?
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Anti-taxxer
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In reply to CanyonAg77 • 12:04p, 1/30/25
AG
CanyonAg77 said:
Back to the figure skaters

In 1961, the US Figure Skating Team lost 18 skaters and coaches in a plane crash. I believe they were traveling to Prague for a competition

The Exec Director of the club where the coaches worked said their club lost several members in the 1961 flight, as well.
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