Strictly speaking, NONE of the three names have been officially given, so to that extent, there is no mystery.
That two have more social media discussion is not official.
regional jet crash? (American Airlines) at Reagan (DCA)
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Last: 18 hrs ago by titan
Strictly speaking, NONE of the three names have been officially given, so to that extent, there is no mystery.
That two have more social media discussion is not official.
Haven't they only recovered one if the helo crew? There are processes to follow notifying NOK, declaring them missing then presumed dead if they aren't recovered.
Nm
The only mission specific item calling for NVG use would appear to me would be the assumption that power is out in DC and blackout conditions are present. Hard to train for unless the grid is purposely taken down for the training. (And THAT would never happen.)Kyle Field Shade Chaser said:
multiple military pilots have said it would NOT be normal to wear night vision in a city environment. not even when in a training flight. would be very unlikely they had the night vision on.
So am not seeing any reason why NVGs though present were in use given the ambient light present at the time.
Am I missing something?
JobSecurity said:
Staff when you delete this can you leave an edit in the post so people stop reposting it because they haven't seen it??
[OK. The post that was removed above is a tweet about the pilot being a trans. People should not repost that tweet unless they want to incur our wrath -- Staff]
Seems like another case of the helo being way above the altitude ceiling for the route they were on. Is it normal for pilots to just ignore the ceilings like that with no repercussions.Kenneth_2003 said:PAT11 repeatedly confirmed Visual Separation to identified traffic.Jbob04 said:
Here is the near miss from the day before the accident.
PAT11 had TWO (edit THREE) Conflict Advisories in that one video. Neither got a callback/response from ATC.
When Brickyard 4514 called the go around they had 800ft separation. TCAS (as I understand) does not give a Resolution Advisory (RA) below 1000ft, but they were still at 1400 and PAT11 was at 600.
because its an unsubstantiated rumor and invites a complete derail of the thread.
txags92 said:Seems like another case of the helo being way above the altitude ceiling for the route they were on. Is it normal for pilots to just ignore the ceilings like that with no repercussions.Kenneth_2003 said:PAT11 repeatedly confirmed Visual Separation to identified traffic.Jbob04 said:
Here is the near miss from the day before the accident.
PAT11 had TWO (edit THREE) Conflict Advisories in that one video. Neither got a callback/response from ATC.
When Brickyard 4514 called the go around they had 800ft separation. TCAS (as I understand) does not give a Resolution Advisory (RA) below 1000ft, but they were still at 1400 and PAT11 was at 600.
Have to go back and see what the actual ceilings are. I'm pretty sure the 200 is only off the approach end of RW33
This is just me spit-balling and I would love the military pilots here to slap me down if needed, but would there be any chance of them using an NVG analog to allow them to get as close as possible to a blackout evacuation? Something to restrict their view similar to NVGs but without being blinded from the ambient lighting?aggiehawg said:The only mission specific item calling for NVG use would appear to me would be the assumption that power is out in DC and blackout conditions are present. Hard to train for unless the grid is purposely taken down for the training. (And THAT would never happen.)Kyle Field Shade Chaser said:
multiple military pilots have said it would NOT be normal to wear night vision in a city environment. not even when in a training flight. would be very unlikely they had the night vision on.
So am not seeing any reason why NVGs though present were in use given the ambient light present at the time.
Am I missing something?
It was reported yesterday that her body was recovered. That is when it became public knowledge that the pilot was a SHE.GAC06 said:
Haven't they only recovered one if the helo crew? There are processes to follow notifying NOK, declaring them missing then presumed dead if they aren't recovered.
Ellis Wyatt said:It was reported yesterday that her body was recovered. That is when it became public knowledge that the pilot was a SHE.GAC06 said:
Haven't they only recovered one if the helo crew? There are processes to follow notifying NOK, declaring them missing then presumed dead if they aren't recovered.
He is stating the other two may not have been recovered yet. In that case they typically wait for all.
Makes sense from a policy standpoint. We all spoiled over the past decade by the expectation of instantaneous information.
Will defer to v1rotate92 on this one.
Looks like they were crossing over Arlington Cemetery transiting from Route 5 to Route 1. NE End of Route 5 looks like 400' ceiling if I read the chart right, and 200' over Arlington Cemetery and 200' on Route 1 until they reach Memorial Bridge where it goes up to 300. If they were at 600, they were 200-400 over the ceiling for their route.Kenneth_2003 said:txags92 said:Seems like another case of the helo being way above the altitude ceiling for the route they were on. Is it normal for pilots to just ignore the ceilings like that with no repercussions.Kenneth_2003 said:PAT11 repeatedly confirmed Visual Separation to identified traffic.Jbob04 said:
Here is the near miss from the day before the accident.
PAT11 had TWO (edit THREE) Conflict Advisories in that one video. Neither got a callback/response from ATC.
When Brickyard 4514 called the go around they had 800ft separation. TCAS (as I understand) does not give a Resolution Advisory (RA) below 1000ft, but they were still at 1400 and PAT11 was at 600.
Have to go back and see what the actual ceilings are. I'm pretty sure the 200 is only off the approach end of RW33
Controller staffing wasn't the cause. Helo called traffic in sight and requested and was approved visual separation
Controller even queried him/she again. ATC controllers will always request more staffing. It's the nature of bureaucracy. The congestion is an issue and procedure was flawed but the current Breitbart headline is great for the controller union
Controller even queried him/she again. ATC controllers will always request more staffing. It's the nature of bureaucracy. The congestion is an issue and procedure was flawed but the current Breitbart headline is great for the controller union
Slick
Not the root cause, but was a contributing factor. Root cause appears to be helo flying outside of (west of) and above the ceiling for the approved route.v1rotate92 said:
Controller staffing wasn't the cause. Helo called traffic in sight and requested and was approved visual separation
Controller even queried him/she again. ATC controllers will always request more staffing. It's the nature of bureaucracy. The congestion is an issue and procedure was flawed but the current Breitbart headline is great for the controller union
From experience, fixed wing and Helo pilots flying in and out of military bases near or in cities routinely use NVGs. The pilot determines if the goggles are helpful or a hinderance depending on ambient lighting and lunar illumination. This accident is squarely on the helo crew and the helicopter transit procedure around DCA
Slick
Apparently one helicopter pilot had 1,000 hours and the other had 500 hours. That's not a ton of time. But more importantly, I wonder how much time they had in that type of aircraft (Blackhawk Helo) and in those conditions (night). A good chunk of their total time was very likely in fixed wing aircraft and probably not at night... just curious.
It seems pretty clear the helicopter shouldn't have been at that altitude, and in the jet's flight path on final approach. So, pretty sure it was pilot error in the helicopter. Inexperience in those conditions may have played a part.
It seems pretty clear the helicopter shouldn't have been at that altitude, and in the jet's flight path on final approach. So, pretty sure it was pilot error in the helicopter. Inexperience in those conditions may have played a part.
Stat Monitor Repairman said:
Makes sense from a policy standpoint. We all spoiled over the past decade by the expectation of instantaneous information.
Sometimes even the living cannot be identified until notice is given. Listen to Allen Mack's account of being one of the few survivors of a couple crews at Takur Ghar on the SRS show #148 its a tough listen. I don't think his wife ever forgave him.
Kenneth_2003 said:
Edited to fix the left/right turn typo...
Yeah, I didn't mention NVG's because I've never seen confirmed they were using them on this portion of the flight though they could have been.
Also, yes PAT25 was not on the East bank. they were at best most likely over the river centerline. A quick Google Maps measurement, projecting RW 33 CL to the CL of the river, shows river CL to East bank to be ~1,800ft. I would be interested to know how "precise" those Route marks are meant to be. My gut/initial reaction would say it means stick to the side of the river the mark is on. The big fat mark on the map would scale up 500-700 feet wide in real life. Either way, again, being closer to the bank vs the CL increases the deconfliction.
The helo crew bears the blame for this tragedy.
Didn't both the CRJ and helicopter come to rest much closer to the east bank?
plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
There was a discussion of flight hours earlier in the thread (maybe 10-12 pages ago?). Now that we are out of the wars, flight hours are not accumulating as fast as they had been during deployments, so those numbers are probably not as low as they would otherwise seem relative to what was standard 5-10 years ago for an experienced pilot.Whaler said:
Apparently one helicopter pilot had 1,000 hours and the other had 500 hours. That's not a ton of time. But more importantly, I wonder how much time they had in that type of aircraft (Blackhawk Helo) and in those conditions (night). A good chunk of their total time was very likely in fixed wing aircraft and probably not at night... just curious.
It seems pretty clear the helicopter shouldn't have been at that altitude, and in the jet's flight path on final approach. So, pretty sure it was pilot error in the helicopter. Inexperience in those conditions may have played a part.
Hypothetical question:
If you put a highly skilled pilot in a simulator set-up under identical conditions, how many tries would it take for the Blackhawk pilot to replicate what happened here?
If you put a highly skilled pilot in a simulator set-up under identical conditions, how many tries would it take for the Blackhawk pilot to replicate what happened here?
Regarding whether Blackhawks have ADSB... this just flew over my house. FWIW.
https://globe.adsbexchange.com/
https://globe.adsbexchange.com/
Of course staffing may be a contributing factor along with 10 others such as crew rest, aircraft lighting, etc. but I believe the helo crew simply misID the aircraft they were supposed to avoid and it's easily possible to not see the RJ until impact. Helos transiting through DCA should remain 3-5 miles away from DCA and remain below 300'
Not familiar with the procedure but allowing Helo to see and avoid traffic in DCA airspace leads to this. It's easy to mis ID traffic at night
Not familiar with the procedure but allowing Helo to see and avoid traffic in DCA airspace leads to this. It's easy to mis ID traffic at night
Slick
If you go with that - What's the motive though? Why that crj?
IF suggesting instability, wouldn't something more ordinary but also dumb like an argument account for distraction enough?
The RJ flight path is predictable. You know the RJ will be at 6-700ft 2-3 miles from runway touchdown point but I don't think this is a suicide mission. I hope not
Slick
Not entirely. It appears it may be true, they just have the wrong ID of whom. That's at least what it seems to be.
If a suicide mission, you mean random, in that any plane would have done? It just doesn't seem remarkable.v1rotate92 said:
The RJ flight path is predictable. You know the RJ will be at 6-700ft 2-3 miles from runway touchdown point but I don't think this is a suicide mission. I hope not
probably about as many as it took for it happen in real lifeStat Monitor Repairman said:
Hypothetical question:
If you put a highly skilled pilot in a simulator set-up under identical conditions, how many tries would it take for the Blackhawk pilot to replicate what happened here?
Again, anything is possible but aircraft loss of separation in congested airspace is not un common. Simultaneous close parallel approaches at 28L and 28R at SFO gets sketchy sometimes when the aircraft landing 28R overshoots final and not on speed. Check out the SFO procedure on flight tracker. Not saying it's dangerous but has the potential for mishap if pilots/controllers aren't on their game. TCAS is super helpful in this case. The reason for the close parallel approaches is environmental wackos preventing the addition of another runway in the Bay
Slick
My recollection was that he only flew apaches in Iraq, mainly convey protection. Last name started with G. But I bet he wasn't the only one.
Yeah, mode is just a selection on the transponder. they can go back and forth from S, A, etc. Believe they are number in the hawk, 1,2,3,4,5,S and probably some sub-modes.Tailgate88 said:
Regarding whether Blackhawks have ADSB... this just flew over my house. FWIW.
https://globe.adsbexchange.com/
Why do you think a chopper pilot trained in fixed wing?
And a Blackhawk pilot starts training in Blackhawks while still in flight school
And a Blackhawk pilot starts training in Blackhawks while still in flight school
That's the essence of the argument against this being a pre-planned intentional act.sts7049 said:probably about as many as it took for it happen in real lifeStat Monitor Repairman said:
Hypothetical question:
If you put a highly skilled pilot in a simulator set-up under identical conditions, how many tries would it take for the Blackhawk pilot to replicate what happened here?
Do you mean the Precision Runway Monitored approaches? I thought SFO got rid of those a few years ago.v1rotate92 said:
Simultaneous close parallel approaches at 28L and 28R at SFO gets sketchy sometimes when the aircraft landing 28R overshoots final and not on speed. Check out the SFO procedure on flight tracker.
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