regional jet crash? (American Airlines) at Reagan (DCA)

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heyjoe44
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In reply to bobbranco • 8:00a, 1/31/25
AG
bobbranco said:
The helicopters are supposed to follow Route 1 and Route 4 above the eastern shore of the Potomac River. See below for the routes. The flight track of the UH60 shows it deviated from Route 1 by passing over the golf course at Hains Point and ends up almost mid Potomac at the crash location. The glide paths are well established and the UH60 would have clearly been interfering with the glide path when deviating from the established route.

The AAL pilots carry 0% fault. It was the failure of the ATC and the UH60 pilots based on these diagrams.



From the map you can see the 200 ft flight limit. Clearly the PAT25 (UH60) was above 200 ft at the time of conflict. Additionally, I believe ATC asked PAT25 for visual of the JIA5342 (CRJ) and asked for them to pass behind (to the east or right) and PAT25 went the opposite direction. PAT25 confirmed they had aircraft in slight (may have been AAL3120 behind JIA5342), requesting visual separation, with ATC approving.

Agreed that the CRJ pilots shouldn't be a fault. I believe it will primarily be the fault of the UH60 pilots, but ATC should have had better control of the situation.

All that to say, what the heck do I know though...
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aggiehawg
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In reply to Catag94 • 8:01a, 1/31/25
AG
Catag94 said:
Yes. Standard beacon or strobe light. Intended to help be identified and avoided (anti-collision lighting)
Thank you. Clip was so short, had no frame of reference since only saw it once.
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Catag94
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In reply to aggiehawg • 8:04a, 1/31/25
AG
There were a couple. One higher and aft and one lower and mid ship. They were alternating which is normal.
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one safe place
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In reply to TA-OP • 8:06a, 1/31/25
TA-OP said:
fullback44 said:
v1rotate92 said:
Good luck getting the data from the FAA to prove or disprove DEI effects on the accident/incident rates
The FAA needs to retest all DEI hires to see if they are capable of doing the job, if not, get out the ax cut them lose or send them out to California to help fight fires
Why all DEI hires? Eff that. If you're going to retest hires, retest them all. Selectively testing is in itself racist like the DEI claims.
Racist? Exactly what race is DEI?
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Kyle Field Shade Chaser
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In reply to JFABNRGR • 8:06a, 1/31/25
AG
Also not being discussed much is why the right hand turn and gain on altitude by the helo?

If you're going "behind" the plane what would make you turn right?

Even if you're looking at the incorrect plane, the larger plane further back…turning right would be in front of that larger plane also.

The turn and the gain in altitude is what really has me not fully on board with accident yet.
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Catag94
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In reply to Kyle Field Shade Chaser • 8:10a, 1/31/25
AG
Several of us have noted this but until more facts are available, I prefer tho think it was a last second attempt to evade the plane suddenly there on their left.
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Scruffy
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In reply to AggieFlyboy • 8:15a, 1/31/25
AG
AggieFlyboy said:


I wish people would stop giving Captain Steeeve clicks, that guy is an idiot, he is a classic narcissistic Pilot that rarely knows what he is talking about


The only ones I'd give views are Blancolerio and Mentour Pilot.
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JFABNRGR
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In reply to Kyle Field Shade Chaser • 8:25a, 1/31/25
AG
Kyle Field Shade Chaser said:
Also not being discussed much is why the right hand turn and gain on altitude by the helo?

If you're going "behind" the plane what would make you turn right?

Even if you're looking at the incorrect plane, the larger plane further back…turning right would be in front of that larger plane also.

The turn and the gain in altitude is what really has me not fully on board with accident yet.


I have mentioned the right turn several times, though I don't have 100% confirmation that is the accurate flight path, however even if Helo track heading was maintained (straight) the Lack of a left turn to go behind as instructed is problematic for either aircraft identified by the Helo and should have triggered ATC to provide emergency deconfliction instructions.

FWIW I mostly believe this was an accident. An accident that almost happened many times over in the last few years. I will let the full investigation run its course to determine if something different occurred.
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Tailgate88
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8:27a, 1/31/25
AG
This interview is with an aviation expert and he goes on dry on the FAA.

Quote:
"It's our system that is bad and that's what has to be looked at. To be honest with you… we need to take a bulldozer to the front of the FAA. This is bad management, and it's putting us at risk," Boyd Group International President Mike Boyd said Thursday in reaction on "Mornings with Maria."

"This is a problem we have with air traffic control. Mr. Duffy has to do something about this," he continued. "We messed around with air traffic control for 30 years. Now we have deaths in the Potomac because of it. So this is a wake-up call for the new administration, which means, fix the FAA and fix it soon before more people die."


https://www.foxbusiness.com/media/expert-puts-onus-faa-american-airlines-helicopter-crash-bad-management-putting-us-risk?
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AggieFlyboy
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In reply to JFABNRGR • 8:31a, 1/31/25
AG
JFABNRGR said:
Kyle Field Shade Chaser said:
Also not being discussed much is why the right hand turn and gain on altitude by the helo?

If you're going "behind" the plane what would make you turn right?

Even if you're looking at the incorrect plane, the larger plane further back…turning right would be in front of that larger plane also.

The turn and the gain in altitude is what really has me not fully on board with accident yet.


I have mentioned the right turn several times, though I don't have 100% confirmation that is the accurate flight path, however even if Helo track heading was maintained (straight) the Lack of a left turn to go behind as instructed is problematic for either aircraft identified by the Helo and should have triggered ATC to provide emergency deconfliction instructions.



Things happen fast in aviation…one second you're fat, dumb, and happy…10 seconds later you are in the middle of chaos trying the fly the aircraft, figure out what's going on, and communicate with the person next to you or outside the aircraft.

It's easy to ask these questions at ground speed zero, where you can analyze everything with a fine toothed comb. 30 seconds in the air is simultaneously a long time and no time.

You try to anticipate as much as possible, you make sure focus on what's needed and keep a cross-check going. We know what's about to happen when we watch these videos…they didn't

Edits: grammar corrections
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JFABNRGR
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In reply to AggieFlyboy • 8:39a, 1/31/25
AG
AggieFlyboy said:
JFABNRGR said:
Kyle Field Shade Chaser said:
Also not being discussed much is why the right hand turn and gain on altitude by the helo?

If you're going "behind" the plane what would make you turn right?

Even if you're looking at the incorrect plane, the larger plane further back…turning right would be in front of that larger plane also.

The turn and the gain in altitude is what really has me not fully on board with accident yet.


I have mentioned the right turn several times, though I don't have 100% confirmation that is the accurate flight path, however even if Helo track heading was maintained (straight) the Lack of a left turn to go behind as instructed is problematic for either aircraft identified by the Helo and should have triggered ATC to provide emergency deconfliction instructions.



Things happen fast in aviation…one second you're fat, dumb, and happy…10 seconds later you are in the middle of chaos trying the fly the aircraft, figure out what's going on, and communicate with the person next to you or outside the aircraft.

It's easy to ask these questions at ground speed zero, where you can analyze everything with a fine toothed comb. 30 seconds in the air is simultaneously a long time and no time.

You try to anticipate as much as possible, you make sure focus on what's needed and keep a cross-check going. We know what's about to happen when we watch these videos…they didn't

Edits: grammar corrections


I understand and agree with you but a controller should be able to see X amount of seconds in the future based on the data being provided them. In this case he is conflicted between what he is seeing versus his trust in what he is hearing.
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Biz Ag
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8:41a, 1/31/25
AG
Horrible.

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Ellis Wyatt
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In reply to TA-OP • 8:42a, 1/31/25
TA-OP said:
fullback44 said:
v1rotate92 said:
Good luck getting the data from the FAA to prove or disprove DEI effects on the accident/incident rates
The FAA needs to retest all DEI hires to see if they are capable of doing the job, if not, get out the ax cut them lose or send them out to California to help fight fires
Why all DEI hires? Eff that. If you're going to retest hires, retest them all. Selectively testing is in itself racist like the DEI claims.
I think the point is that someone hired on their merit was, now hear me out..........hired on their merit. A DEI hire was not.

hth
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titan
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8:45a, 1/31/25
S


Quote:
Biz Ag

Horrible.



Definitely the helicopter's fault there. To the point of looking inept given the visibility--that's why so many getting stuck on speculation intentional. In fact, if the passengers were different and some obvious high figures, it is so absurd it would be hard to rule out
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Biz Ag
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8:46a, 1/31/25
AG
wrong thread
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fire09
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In reply to AggieFlyboy • 8:47a, 1/31/25
AG
AggieFlyboy said:
JFABNRGR said:
Kyle Field Shade Chaser said:
Also not being discussed much is why the right hand turn and gain on altitude by the helo?

If you're going "behind" the plane what would make you turn right?

Even if you're looking at the incorrect plane, the larger plane further back…turning right would be in front of that larger plane also.

The turn and the gain in altitude is what really has me not fully on board with accident yet.


I have mentioned the right turn several times, though I don't have 100% confirmation that is the accurate flight path, however even if Helo track heading was maintained (straight) the Lack of a left turn to go behind as instructed is problematic for either aircraft identified by the Helo and should have triggered ATC to provide emergency deconfliction instructions.



Things happen fast in aviation…one second your fat, dumb, and happy…10 seconds later you are in the middle of chaos trying the fly the aircraft, figure out what's going on, and communicate with the person next to you or outside the aircraft.

It's easy to ask these questions at ground speed zero, where you can analyze everything with a fine toothed comb. 30 seconds in the air is simultaneously a long time and no time.

You try to anticipate as much as possible, you make sure focus on what's needed and keep a cross-check going. We know what's about to happen when we watch these videos…they didnt


There was nothing unusual about that deconflict communication from ATC. There was nothing unusual about the circle to land approach. Both of these happen all the time at every major airport every day.

What was unusual was the helicopter being outside the altitude on the DP (assuming they weren't cleared to another altitude which we don't know). What was unusual was the helicopter turning right to cross the approach path of the inbound they misidentified, which was clearly a deviation regardless of which aircraft they saw.

Could ATC have done better deconflicting? maybe. Did they act outside of the norm of what happens every day at every towered airport? No.

DEI, intentional collision, aa pilots fault, atc's fault, bla bla bla. This is going to be on the 60 with ATC as a contributing factor.
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The Kraken
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8:47a, 1/31/25
AG
For all the criticism of the FAA and airlines....just note that this is the first major crash of a regional jet since 2009. We haven't had a mainline crash since late 2001. That's with an exponential increase in air travel over the past few decades. Remember when airline crashes occurred much more frequently. with multiple incidents in a year? Certainly issues with this incident that will be scrutinized and there are definitely improvement needed within the FAA but those people work their asses off to keep our air travel safe.
plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
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G Martin 87
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In reply to Ellis Wyatt • 8:48a, 1/31/25
AG
Ellis Wyatt said:
TA-OP said:
fullback44 said:
v1rotate92 said:
Good luck getting the data from the FAA to prove or disprove DEI effects on the accident/incident rates
The FAA needs to retest all DEI hires to see if they are capable of doing the job, if not, get out the ax cut them lose or send them out to California to help fight fires
Why all DEI hires? Eff that. If you're going to retest hires, retest them all. Selectively testing is in itself racist like the DEI claims.
I think the point is that someone hired on their merit was, now hear me out..........hired on their merit. A DEI hire was not.

hth
From a practical standpoint, I think they're going to have to retest everyone anyway. It's not like every ATC's employment file has "DEI Hire" or "Not a DEI Hire" stamped in big red letters on it.
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Ellis Wyatt
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In reply to G Martin 87 • 8:54a, 1/31/25
Quote:
Quote:
I think the point is that someone hired on their merit was, now hear me out..........hired on their merit. A DEI hire was not.

hth
From a practical standpoint, I think they're going to have to retest everyone anyway. It's not like every ATC's employment file has "DEI Hire" or "Not a DEI Hire" stamped in big red letters on it.
No, understood. And that's the issue with even a single DEI hire. The whole organization is weakened.

People die when placed into situations with a lot of risk when they are not up to the task mentally or physically. Being lucky should never be management's plan.
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MarkTwain
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8:56a, 1/31/25
People sleep peaceably in their beds at night only because hard men stand ready to do violence on their behalf.
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titan
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In reply to G Martin 87 • 8:56a, 1/31/25
S
G Martin 87 said:
Ellis Wyatt said:
TA-OP said:
fullback44 said:
v1rotate92 said:
Good luck getting the data from the FAA to prove or disprove DEI effects on the accident/incident rates
The FAA needs to retest all DEI hires to see if they are capable of doing the job, if not, get out the ax cut them lose or send them out to California to help fight fires
Why all DEI hires? Eff that. If you're going to retest hires, retest them all. Selectively testing is in itself racist like the DEI claims.
I think the point is that someone hired on their merit was, now hear me out..........hired on their merit. A DEI hire was not.

hth
From a practical standpoint, I think they're going to have to retest everyone anyway. It's not like every ATC's employment file has "DEI Hire" or "Not a DEI Hire" stamped in big red letters on it.
No reason not to. For every fix or correction, you always here, "it takes too much time." But that it is because it is never begun. A journey of 1,000 miles begins with a single step remains true. The journey to banish Leftist standards of anti-merit can start this year. Because while the track record crashes remains low for the moment, apparently the number of mishaps and near-misses are increasing. Re-testing is appropriate for competence reasons as much as flushing out ones hired for DEI unsuitable reasons.
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DannyDuberstein
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8:57a, 1/31/25
AG
Government continuity exercise flies into a passenger jet. Gonna mark that as an F
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Logos Stick
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In reply to The Kraken • 9:03a, 1/31/25
The Kraken said:
For all the criticism of the FAA and airlines....just note that this is the first major crash of a regional jet since 2009. We haven't had a mainline crash since late 2001. That's with an exponential increase in air travel over the past few decades. Remember when airline crashes occurred much more frequently. with multiple incidents in a year? Certainly issues with this incident that will be scrutinized and there are definitely improvement needed within the FAA but those people work their asses off to keep our air travel safe.


People, especially the FAA, didn't all of a sudden become more competent and smarter. In fact, Obama worked to do the opposite. It's public record.

The skies are safer now because of tech (anti collision, fly by wire, etc), sims for training, improved maintenance, improvements in aircraft design, etc.
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BBRex
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9:05a, 1/31/25
AG
Let's not forget to blame Congress for keeping this open as a commercial airport despite its obvious flaws.

https://www.abc27.com/national/congress-authorized-more-flights-at-reagan-national-despite-warnings/
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AggieFlyboy
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In reply to Logos Stick • 9:06a, 1/31/25
AG
Logos Stick said:
The Kraken said:
For all the criticism of the FAA and airlines....just note that this is the first major crash of a regional jet since 2009. We haven't had a mainline crash since late 2001. That's with an exponential increase in air travel over the past few decades. Remember when airline crashes occurred much more frequently. with multiple incidents in a year? Certainly issues with this incident that will be scrutinized and there are definitely improvement needed within the FAA but those people work their asses off to keep our air travel safe.


People, especially the FAA, didn't all of a sudden become more competent and smarter. In fact, Obama worked to do the opposite. It's public record.

The skies are safer now because of tech (anti collision, fly by wire, etc), sims for training, improved maintenance, improvements in aircraft design, etc.


Training, CRM (Crew Resource Management), and awareness also have played their part in increasing aviation safety. It's not just a tech solution
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Anti-taxxer
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In reply to Biz Ag • 9:13a, 1/31/25
AG
Biz Ag said:
Horrible.


How in the world do the BH pilots NOT see that plane?
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titan
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In reply to Logos Stick • 9:16a, 1/31/25
S
Logos Stick said:
The Kraken said:
For all the criticism of the FAA and airlines....just note that this is the first major crash of a regional jet since 2009. We haven't had a mainline crash since late 2001. That's with an exponential increase in air travel over the past few decades. Remember when airline crashes occurred much more frequently. with multiple incidents in a year? Certainly issues with this incident that will be scrutinized and there are definitely improvement needed within the FAA but those people work their asses off to keep our air travel safe.


People, especially the FAA, didn't all of a sudden become more competent and smarter. In fact, Obama worked to do the opposite. It's public record.

The skies are safer now because of tech (anti collision, fly by wire, etc), sims for training, improved maintenance, improvements in aircraft design, etc.
Yes, Obama's did. Some of those blase acceptances of unfitness and incompetence they were building in is amazing to read. His people and HIll members and all activists should be made to use those hires for all their stuff.
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Rapier108
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In reply to Anti-taxxer • 9:16a, 1/31/25
Anti-taxxer said:
Biz Ag said:
Horrible.


The helicopter is the one moving at a faster speed? And the plane is the one that is more solidly lit, and seems (from this angle) to be moving slower?
A plane moving more toward the viewer/camera will always appear to be moving slower than one moving perpendicular to the viewer/camera.

It is why if you see a tornado and it looks to not be moving; then it is coming right at you.
"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves." - Sir Winston Churchill
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Anti-taxxer
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In reply to Rapier108 • 9:18a, 1/31/25
AG
Thanks! I figured it out right after I posted.
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flown-the-coop
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In reply to DannyDuberstein • 9:20a, 1/31/25
AG
DannyDuberstein said:
Government continuity exercise flies into a passenger jet. Gonna mark that as an F
I would think one of the first steps in case of an actual event would be to clear all commercial and non-essential aircraft.

But yes, it would appear this training did not pass the objective but may ultimately be helpful.
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bobbranco
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In reply to Anti-taxxer • 9:20a, 1/31/25
AG
nm
The post I replied to changed.

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titan
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In reply to BBRex • 9:20a, 1/31/25
S
BBRex said:
Let's not forget to blame Congress for keeping this open as a commercial airport despite its obvious flaws.

https://www.abc27.com/national/congress-authorized-more-flights-at-reagan-national-despite-warnings/
That is certainly a factor -- a product of actual location and just risk overall. Seems though a look should be taken at whether this cross transverse traffic is strictly needed. Where are they going to and fro? Maybe build a heliport at different vector from there. (Property there is probably a premium though.)
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CanyonAg77
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In reply to BBRex • 9:21a, 1/31/25
AG
BBRex said:
Let's not forget to blame Congress for keeping this open as a commercial airport despite its obvious flaws.

https://www.abc27.com/national/congress-authorized-more-flights-at-reagan-national-despite-warnings/

Yeah, I suspect traffic in/out of DCA will be reduced in the future. They will figure some way of keeping it open for the elites in D.C., while moving us plebes to Dulles.

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DannyDuberstein
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9:23a, 1/31/25
AG
It is kind of cool to fly in there, but the times I've done it, I did feel like we were being squeezed into a funnel with all of the restrictions so nearby
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Dill-Ag13
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In reply to DannyDuberstein • 9:24a, 1/31/25
AG
Flew Houston to dca about a year ago on an identical plane. Gotta say I love the approach down the Potomac
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