regional jet crash? (American Airlines) at Reagan (DCA)

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bobbranco
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In reply to Kyle Field Shade Chaser • 8:42p, 1/31/25
AG
Kyle Field Shade Chaser said:
But the Heli had more than ample
Time to see the plane. It's not like the Heli was "behind" the plane. For a long stretch that Heli to see the CRJ headlight.
Look at the spotlight at the nose of an airplane landing. Will explain this in simple terms and not necessarily using the proper aviation terminology.

All the other lights are 'running lights' that at night blend in with all other artificial lights in the nighttime sky. The 'spotlight' is illuminated only during landing and maybe takeoff. Go look at an observation area at your local airport. You may be able to understand after seeing a couple landings and watch for this 'spotlight'. If you have spatial sense and any sense of dead reckoning you will clue into what I describe. Otherwise, if you don't see how this happens then thank you baby Jesus.

Added the image below that shows the flight path of both aircraft. I am giving the UH60 pilots a huge pass for missing the CRJ700. They should have seen the plane.

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Ellis Wyatt
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In reply to Bunk Moreland • 8:54p, 1/31/25
Bunk Moreland said:
Ellis Wyatt said:
Because that's not how this ever works.


Glad you've kept up with every military death ever.
What is it with the absurd comments?

I live less than 2 miles from a military base. I grew up less than 5 miles from a military base. I've heard of countless training accidents and crashes over my 50ish years. I've never seen a name withheld outside of suicide.

That's not how this is done.
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AggieFlyboy
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In reply to Kyle Field Shade Chaser • 9:02p, 1/31/25
AG
Kyle Field Shade Chaser said:
But the Heli had more than ample
Time to see the plane. It's not like the Heli was "behind" the plane. For a long stretch that Heli to see the CRJ headlight.


Which is what most people have been saying, the helicopter messed up. They should have seen the CRJ but they didn't. As I've said before, It's easy to sit at groundspeed zero and say what should have happened

Aviation can be a cruel mistress, very unforgiving of mistakes. Until a concerted effort was made in the late 80s to improve aviation safety, there were yearly crashes.

This accident is tragic and everybody is looking for answers as to how it happened. They are creating connections with little understanding of aviation to fill data gaps and most of those are either unlikely or far-fetched.

It has been 16 years since a fatal airliner crash in the US. We can all pray that more than 16 until the next one
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AggieFlyboy
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In reply to AggieFlyboy • 9:02p, 1/31/25
AG
Double post
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stetson
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In reply to bobbranco • 9:21p, 1/31/25
AG
bobbranco said:
Kyle Field Shade Chaser said:
But the Heli had more than ample
Time to see the plane. It's not like the Heli was "behind" the plane. For a long stretch that Heli to see the CRJ headlight.
Look at the spotlight at the nose of an airplane landing. Will explain this in simple terms and not necessarily using the proper aviation terminology.

All the other lights are 'running lights' that at night blend in with all other artificial lights in the nighttime sky. The 'spotlight' is illuminated only during landing and maybe takeoff. Go look at an observation area at your local airport. You may be able to understand after seeing a couple landings and watch for this 'spotlight'. If you have spatial sense and any sense of dead reckoning you will clue into what I describe. Otherwise, if you don't see how this happens then thank you baby Jesus.

Added the image below that shows the flight path of both aircraft. I am giving the UH60 pilots a huge pass for missing the CRJ700. They should have seen the plane.


Yes, difficult to discern aircraft lights from background lights at night and if you do see them, it is very difficult to estimate their distance and height relative to yours. Furthermore, with the aircraft on a collision course, there would be no relative motion of the CRJ lights to the UH-60 crew making it that much more difficult.
FJB
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The Kraken
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In reply to bobbranco • 9:26p, 1/31/25
AG
bobbranco said:
Bunk Moreland said:
fc2112 said:
Whoever was flying this helicopter was a ****ing moron. How do you miss the fully lit up jet right in front of you?


For starters, it wasn't right in front of them. You've had multiple pilots and helicopter pilots on tv news, online and on this thread discuss how these things can and do happen with relation to blind spots, what they're looking at, possible mistakes in what they were tracking, the city lights, etc.

You're looking at a 2d video and attempting to project 3d summations.

Now that doesn't mean the pilot wasn't a moron. But the plane was not 'right in front of them'
It was in front of them. They clearly missed seeing the plane in front of them. And for some stupid reason they turned east further over the Potomac, way off course, then headed south toward the WW bridge and ran into the plane.
Do we know that course track is actually accurate?
plus ça change, plus c'est la même chose
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Catag94
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In reply to The Kraken • 9:29p, 1/31/25
AG
DC area helicopter routes in blueish purple


Or were you asking about the ADS-B captured route a couple post up? It's accurate too.
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Southlake
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10:04p, 1/31/25
It's never the students fault; it's always the IPs fault.
I got over a thousand hours of IP time in jets and have had to "Take" the aircraft in many situations.
The responsibility is the Instructor's.

That being said, I still can't believe that even with the helo calling the traffic that ATC let them get that close.
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Rapier108
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11:01p, 1/31/25

"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves." - Sir Winston Churchill
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titan
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In reply to stetson • 11:25p, 1/31/25
S
stetson said:
bobbranco said:
Kyle Field Shade Chaser said:
But the Heli had more than ample
Time to see the plane. It's not like the Heli was "behind" the plane. For a long stretch that Heli to see the CRJ headlight.
Look at the spotlight at the nose of an airplane landing. Will explain this in simple terms and not necessarily using the proper aviation terminology.

All the other lights are 'running lights' that at night blend in with all other artificial lights in the nighttime sky. The 'spotlight' is illuminated only during landing and maybe takeoff. Go look at an observation area at your local airport. You may be able to understand after seeing a couple landings and watch for this 'spotlight'. If you have spatial sense and any sense of dead reckoning you will clue into what I describe. Otherwise, if you don't see how this happens then thank you baby Jesus.

Added the image below that shows the flight path of both aircraft. I am giving the UH60 pilots a huge pass for missing the CRJ700. They should have seen the plane.


Yes, difficult to discern aircraft lights from background lights at night and if you do see them, it is very difficult to estimate their distance and height relative to yours. Furthermore, with the aircraft on a collision course, there would be no relative motion of the CRJ lights to the UH-60 crew making it that much more difficult.
Well to start getting toward the answer, an investigator needs to take such a chopper up and fly the route on a similar night. If it turns out that at that altitude only the sky is in backdrop and any planes should be visible and the cityscape below, that might matter. (In other words, how much do these videos mis-represent/mislead on the sky visibility backdrop) Hopefully a court of inquiry does do this simple thing, for such re-enactments often prove illuminating one way or another.
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txags92
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12:07a, 2/1/25
AG
Keep in mind that the blackhawk is going to fly pitched slightly forward, and was ascending at the time of the accident and the plane was coming in at about 85 degrees to their left, from above them and descending. The likelihood that they were looking up and to the left (nearly through their own rotor blades) and would be able to see the lights from a plane that they thought would be in front of them is pretty slim.
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Philip J Fry
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12:22a, 2/1/25
AG
I don't buy the whole not able to see the airplane business. It was eye level. It's not like they were looking down on it and losing it to light noise
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FCBlitz
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12:41a, 2/1/25
The way the news is dripping out. I am starting to think one of the helo pilot was female.

Why? ABC uncharacteristically portray the military pilots as the very best. Informing passionately the number of flight hours and how they were exceptional assigned to an exceptional helo group…..it is my experience that when a legacy media outlet does this they are trying to influence an outcome. Usually their take on military (anything) is cynical.

Then another news report followed and identified one male pilot and at the families request their deceased loved one was not going to be identified…….

I am guessing it was a female…….it is just a guess based on what I read.
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jeremiahjt
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In reply to FCBlitz • 12:53a, 2/1/25
FCBlitz said:
The way the news is dripping out. I am starting to think one of the helo pilot was female.

Why? ABC uncharacteristically portray the military pilots as the very best. Informing passionately the number of flight hours and how they were exceptional assigned to an exceptional helo group…..it is my experience that when a legacy media outlet does this they are trying to influence an outcome. Usually their take on military (anything) is cynical.

Then another news report followed and identified one male pilot and at the families request their deceased loved one was not going to be identified…….

I am guessing it was a female…….it is just a guess based on what I read.


Probably a good guess since the news reported they recovered the body of a female pilot from the helicopter wreckage.

Now if this was sarcasm, I apologize for missing it.
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Logos Stick
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In reply to Bunk Moreland • 12:53a, 2/1/25
Bunk Moreland said:
Ellis Wyatt said:
Bunk Moreland said:
TAMUallen said:
Agreed, it's strange. Unless she has no family and her husband is covert CIA abroad, it doesn't seem clear as to why they would hide a person/name for so long


Her family requested they not release her name at this time. The others could have done the same if they wanted. How is that so difficult to understand?
I've lived around the military my entire life and I have never heard of such a thing. It is definitely not SOP.

I've had friends killed on the battlefield who were named in the paper.


You are fundamentally misunderstanding the situation. It's an active investigation and bodies are still in the water.

You make it sound like any soldier ever killed immediately had their information released no matter what. That is asinine.

But I did notice how you avoided my original question to you that why does it matter if we don't find out the name for another week or 2 weeks or 6 weeks. I'd love to know why you think the public has a right to know the name at this very moment.


Can you name a single incident where the name of the pilot has been withheld for more than a day after they've notified next of kin?

It's bull**** and you know it.
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ReturnOfTheAg
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In reply to Logos Stick • 12:54a, 2/1/25
AG
Logos Stick said:
Bunk Moreland said:
Ellis Wyatt said:
Bunk Moreland said:
TAMUallen said:
Agreed, it's strange. Unless she has no family and her husband is covert CIA abroad, it doesn't seem clear as to why they would hide a person/name for so long


Her family requested they not release her name at this time. The others could have done the same if they wanted. How is that so difficult to understand?
I've lived around the military my entire life and I have never heard of such a thing. It is definitely not SOP.

I've had friends killed on the battlefield who were named in the paper.


You are fundamentally misunderstanding the situation. It's an active investigation and bodies are still in the water.

You make it sound like any soldier ever killed immediately had their information released no matter what. That is asinine.

But I did notice how you avoided my original question to you that why does it matter if we don't find out the name for another week or 2 weeks or 6 weeks. I'd love to know why you think the public has a right to know the name at this very moment.


Can you name a single incident where the name of the pilot has been withheld for more than a day after they've notified next of kin?

It's bull**** and you know it.


Why do you want to know so bad?
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Logos Stick
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In reply to ReturnOfTheAg • 12:56a, 2/1/25
ReturnOfTheAg said:
Logos Stick said:
Bunk Moreland said:
Ellis Wyatt said:
Bunk Moreland said:
TAMUallen said:
Agreed, it's strange. Unless she has no family and her husband is covert CIA abroad, it doesn't seem clear as to why they would hide a person/name for so long


Her family requested they not release her name at this time. The others could have done the same if they wanted. How is that so difficult to understand?
I've lived around the military my entire life and I have never heard of such a thing. It is definitely not SOP.

I've had friends killed on the battlefield who were named in the paper.


You are fundamentally misunderstanding the situation. It's an active investigation and bodies are still in the water.

You make it sound like any soldier ever killed immediately had their information released no matter what. That is asinine.

But I did notice how you avoided my original question to you that why does it matter if we don't find out the name for another week or 2 weeks or 6 weeks. I'd love to know why you think the public has a right to know the name at this very moment.


Can you name a single incident where the name of the pilot has been withheld for more than a day after they've notified next of kin?

It's bull**** and you know it.


Why do you want to know so bad?


Because the pilot works for me.
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txags92
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In reply to Philip J Fry • 1:42a, 2/1/25
AG
Philip J Fry said:
I don't buy the whole not able to see the airplane business. It was eye level. It's not like they were looking down on it and losing it to light noise
It was not at eye level. The plane was coming downward from several hundred feet above them, 85 degrees to their left, while they were moving forward and up themselves, with a likely slightly nose down pitch to their helicopter. The plane coming at them was moving over 2 miles per minute, and because of the angle, the lights on the plane would have seemed nearly stationary even if they could see them.
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bobbranco
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In reply to The Kraken • 2:19a, 2/1/25
AG
The Kraken said:
bobbranco said:
Bunk Moreland said:
fc2112 said:
Whoever was flying this helicopter was a ****ing moron. How do you miss the fully lit up jet right in front of you?


For starters, it wasn't right in front of them. You've had multiple pilots and helicopter pilots on tv news, online and on this thread discuss how these things can and do happen with relation to blind spots, what they're looking at, possible mistakes in what they were tracking, the city lights, etc.

You're looking at a 2d video and attempting to project 3d summations.

Now that doesn't mean the pilot wasn't a moron. But the plane was not 'right in front of them'
It was in front of them. They clearly missed seeing the plane in front of them. And for some stupid reason they turned east further over the Potomac, way off course, then headed south toward the WW bridge and ran into the plane.
Do we know that course track is actually accurate?

The UH60 pilots were lost and confused*. The ATC controller checked out of the matter. End result was the helicopter pilots crashed into an aircraft in final moments of descent less than 3000 feet from the end of the runway. Sure the UH60 pilots flew into a plane but ATC should have intervened well before and diverted the CRJ700.

*Lost and confused because the UH60 pilots could have thought their escape was to Route 6.
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AtticusMatlock
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3:00a, 2/1/25
What I'm speculating based on what we know is that two mistakes happened:

1) Blackhawk was flying too high.
2) Blackhawk crew was confused by ATC, was tracking the wrong plane, and didn't see this one.

NVG likely made tracking more difficult. The NTSB report will have an analysis of the visual angles and we'll know how difficult the plane was to see at the key moments. It's easy to look at things from a top-down map and wonder how it wasn't visualized. But when you're in the seat looking through NVG and glass the views are quite different. Plane may have approached from a visual blind spot.
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fullback44
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3:32a, 2/1/25
AG
Well one thing is for sure .. someone majorly F ed up.. probably the military chopper .. nothing else really makes Sense … probably a gay lady / man in drag driving the chopper? Of course that's just a wild guess
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ArmyAg2002
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In reply to fullback44 • 3:59a, 2/1/25
AG
The sex of the copilot or even who was on the controls at the moment of the crash does not matter. Doesnt matter who is in the other seat, it could be a brand new pilot, my C.O., another senior Warrant or our Colonel. It doesn't matter if I'm the aircraft commander. I'm an IP and every time I fly, if something goes wrong, it is on me. It is my responsibility. All of you getting twisted up about the other pilot have it wrong. Ultimate responsibility for the safe operation of the Hawk is on the IP that was on board.
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stetson
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7:48a, 2/1/25
AG
I apologize of I missed it, but I have not read or heard whether the PSA crew were made aware of the presence of the Blackhawk and if they identified it. Typical transmission would be:
Tower: PSA 5342, you have a Blackhawk at your two clock, two miles
PSA: Roger, we have the Blackhawk in sight, PSA 5432
Or "We're looking, PSA 5432"

The Blackhawk confirmed having the RJ in sight and from that point they were responsible for maintaining separation. Maybe they identified the wrong aircraft or lost sight of it and I can't help but think that if the additional controller had been on duty, and one controller was dedicated to helicopters, that they would have assisted the Blackhawk crew maintain separation.
FJB
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Aston04
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In reply to ArmyAg2002 • 7:52a, 2/1/25
AG
ArmyAg2002 said:
The sex of the copilot or even who was on the controls at the moment of the crash does not matter. Doesnt matter who is in the other seat, it could be a brand new pilot, my C.O., another senior Warrant or our Colonel. It doesn't matter if I'm the aircraft commander. I'm an IP and every time I fly, if something goes wrong, it is on me. It is my responsibility. All of you getting twisted up about the other pilot have it wrong. Ultimate responsibility for the safe operation of the Hawk is on the IP that was on board.
u obviously know more than almost everyone here ..

But when seconds count, whoever has control of the helicopter seems to be a gigantic consideration.
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Catag94
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In reply to stetson • 7:59a, 2/1/25
AG
From the ATC recording I heard, traffic was only called out to the UH-60. The CRJ was on a long final to rwy1 injury about to swing as as tower requested of then to set up for rwy 33 when tower contacts PAT25 and told them of the traffic. The only position given to PAT25 for the traffic was "just south of Wilson Bridge setting up for runway 33".
Like you, I was confused why they didn't call out a clock direction, distance, altitude and direct of travel, but then I realized that the HC was traveling along establish route 1 heading east at that time. Wilson bridge is a well known and often used reference landmark, and ATC likely knew PAT25 would soon be on route 4 heading south. So, the clock reference direction would be changing dramatically. If PAT25 is properly on route 4, then there should be no issue and they just need to maintain VFR and separation.
I don't find error with the tower controller's communications.
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Catag94
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In reply to ArmyAg2002 • 8:01a, 2/1/25
AG
Can you clarify what IP is?
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Jbob04
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8:04a, 2/1/25
AG
This article says the helo was 1/2 mile off course


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stetson
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In reply to Catag94 • 8:09a, 2/1/25
AG
Instructor Pilot
FJB
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Catag94
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In reply to Jbob04 • 8:14a, 2/1/25
AG
Not sure about the "sources" in that article. It's only approximately .7 miles from the runway threshold to the east bank of the river so I think the half mile off (presumably meaning closer to the airport) is a stretch.

Nonetheless, I think the idea it was off the route both laterally and higher than approved altitude limits are indeed directionally accurate.
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ArmyAg2002
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In reply to Catag94 • 8:16a, 2/1/25
AG
Catag94 said:
Can you clarify what IP is?


Instructor pilot, the CW2 was the instructor.
Our instructor pilots don't just get the new pilots up to mission ready, but also do a pilots yearly check rides, aircraft commander evaluations and other initial trainings and orientation.

Stetson beat me to the answer.
Off topic: I have a dog named Stetson
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Catag94
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In reply to stetson • 8:16a, 2/1/25
AG
stetson said:
Instructor Pilot


Thank you. Would the FAA agree with this? What I mean is would the IP be viewed as the PIC by the FAA and presumably be at controls and have the ability to take control of the aircraft?
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ArmyAg2002
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In reply to Catag94 • 8:24a, 2/1/25
AG
Catag94 said:
stetson said:
Instructor Pilot


Thank you. Would the FAA agree with this? What I mean is would the IP be viewed as the PIC by the FAA and presumably be at controls and have the ability to take control of the aircraft?


Yes, the IP had access to the controls and could have taken them at any point. NTSB is doing the investigation,
if a civilian aircraft wanst involved the Safety center at Rucker would do the investigation. Im not even aure id the FAA's view matters. The relationship between the military and the FAA is a cooperative one, but pretty much everything in the FAR says that the military is exempt. Military pilots aren't even required to have a pilot's license. FAA regulations are followed, but military regulations trump FAA when the two come into conflict..
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Catag94
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In reply to ArmyAg2002 • 8:26a, 2/1/25
AG
Thanks. Thats informative. And thank you for your service.
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Kenneth_2003
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8:26a, 2/1/25
AG
Good review by Ward Carrol. Not really much new here for those that have been following along. He pulls in commentary from a CG helo pilot on Reddit and commentary from another former F14 driver that has flown the RW1 to 33 switch during his airline time.

He also picks up some model planes as training aides to better show visually what happened.

Again, not really anything most here don't know, but worth a 10 min watch.

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Ellis Wyatt
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In reply to ArmyAg2002 • 8:26a, 2/1/25
ArmyAg2002 said:
The sex of the copilot or even who was on the controls at the moment of the crash does not matter. Doesnt matter who is in the other seat, it could be a brand new pilot, my C.O., another senior Warrant or our Colonel. It doesn't matter if I'm the aircraft commander.
The sex of the pilot may not matter. It's the whole DEI argument. Was the pilot in her job because she's good or because she was a woman? I can't answer that question and neither can you.

I imagine we can both name instances of things that should not have happened in the Army but did because someone was put in an Army position they should never have been in. Amd many times, there are tons of red flags along the way. Her name being withheld does nothing but add to that speculation.
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