regional jet crash? (American Airlines) at Reagan (DCA)

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flown-the-coop
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8:34a, 2/1/25
AG
I will defer to the aviators, but is there a distinction between an "instructor pilot" training a new pilot and a "check pilot"?

I only ask because I had heard a couple times this mentioned as a training flight but also a check flight.

It may not make any difference but was curious as to the level of involvement of the "co-pilot".
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stetson
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In reply to Catag94 • 8:34a, 2/1/25
AG
Catag94 said:
stetson said:
Instructor Pilot


Thank you. Would the FAA agree with this? What I mean is would the IP be viewed as the PIC by the FAA and presumably be at controls and have the ability to take control of the aircraft?

Yes, the IP is the PIC and responsibility falls to him/her.
FJB
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WolfCall
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In reply to Philip J Fry • 8:42a, 2/1/25
AG
Philip J Fry said:
I don't buy the whole not able to see the airplane business. It was eye level. It's not like they were looking down on it and losing it to light noise
^ This!

If it was that difficult for pilots and SSg crewman to see the plane, then no helicopters should ever be allowed to fly that route at night when planes are landing.
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Tailgate88
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In reply to WolfCall • 8:44a, 2/1/25
AG
WolfCall said:
Philip J Fry said:
I don't buy the whole not able to see the airplane business. It was eye level. It's not like they were looking down on it and losing it to light noise
^ This!

If it was that difficult for pilots and SSg crewman to see the plane, then no helicopters should ever be allowed to fly that route at night when planes are landing.


Which is going to happen now but unfortunately too late for these victims.
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stetson
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In reply to WolfCall • 8:52a, 2/1/25
AG
They were off the route and above the maximum altitude.
FJB
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AggieFlyboy
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In reply to flown-the-coop • 8:56a, 2/1/25
AG
flown-the-coop said:
I will defer to the aviators, but is there a distinction between an "instructor pilot" training a new pilot and a "check pilot"?

I only ask because I had heard a couple times this mentioned as a training flight but also a check flight.

It may not make any difference but was curious as to the level of involvement of the "co-pilot".


In the military, a training flight is any flight that is not a "combat mission " or "mission support" flight. It does not necessarily mean the pilot was a student. A training flight does not necessarily require an instructor. The nomenclature is different than what you see in general aviation.

A check flight would occur on a normal training flight

All check pilots are instructors, not all instructors are check pilots

The co-pilot was the one receiving the checkride, so they would be required to be a full participant in the flight. The check pilot would also be a full participant because they are a crew member and would fulfill the duties required of a crew member
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sts7049
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In reply to Ellis Wyatt • 9:00a, 2/1/25
AG
Ellis Wyatt said:
ArmyAg2002 said:
The sex of the copilot or even who was on the controls at the moment of the crash does not matter. Doesnt matter who is in the other seat, it could be a brand new pilot, my C.O., another senior Warrant or our Colonel. It doesn't matter if I'm the aircraft commander.
The sex of the pilot may not matter. It's the whole DEI argument. Was the pilot in her job because she's good or because she was a woman? I can't answer that question and neither can you.

I imagine we can both name instances of things that should not have happened in the Army but did because someone was put in an Army position they should never have been in. Amd many times, there are tons of red flags along the way. Her name being withheld does nothing but add to that speculation.
not knowing her name only dissatisfies your agenda. even if/when it is known, that is not going to end any sort of speculation or internet detectives from creating whatever narrative they want to create. whatever information is out will not change how you or anyone on this particular forum views it
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AggieFlyboy
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In reply to Philip J Fry • 9:03a, 2/1/25
AG
Philip J Fry said:
I don't buy the whole not able to see the airplane business. It was eye level. It's not like they were looking down on it and losing it to light noise


Close to the ground, at eye level you would absolutely have lights in the background
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WolfCall
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In reply to stetson • 9:07a, 2/1/25
AG
stetson said:
They were off the route and above the maximum altitude.
My rejoinder:

If it was that difficult for pilots and SSg crewman to see the plane when they were off the route and above the maximum altitude, then no helicopters should ever be allowed to fly the route (that they should have been flying) at night when planes are landing.
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Kenneth_2003
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In reply to WolfCall • 9:08a, 2/1/25
AG
WolfCall said:
stetson said:
They were off the route and above the maximum altitude.
My rejoinder:

If it was that difficult for pilots and SSg crewman to see the plane when they were off the route and above the maximum altitude, then no helicopters should ever be allowed to fly the route (that they should have been flying) at night when planes are landing.
So if a car runs a red light driving on the wrong side of the road we should close the road?
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flown-the-coop
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In reply to sts7049 • 9:20a, 2/1/25
AG
It is incredibly appropriate to question why a name is being withheld - particularly when the Army in their statement said the practice was unusual.

It's actually the ones saying "it's irrelevant and you only want it for bad reasons" that seem to be obsessed about their being something to hide.

When you question unusual procedures you are being curious, not nefarious.
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Ellis Wyatt
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In reply to sts7049 • 9:28a, 2/1/25
I don't have an agenda. I don't even care what her name is.

I care that her name is released because the public has the right to know why 70 people are dead. The military always releases the names of soldiers killed in accidents because they're our employees.

Hth
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bobbranco
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In reply to sts7049 • 9:34a, 2/1/25
AG
sts7049 said:


not knowing her name only dissatisfies your agenda.

Please tell us, in detail, this agenda.
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78669AG
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In reply to Philip J Fry • 9:38a, 2/1/25
Philip J Fry said:
I don't buy the whole not able to see the airplane business. It was eye level. It's not like they were looking down on it and losing it to light noise


A desending airplane isnt necessarily at eye level. If its ture they were training with NVG's on there is no way they see the crj coming in from the left
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78669AG
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In reply to AtticusMatlock • 9:39a, 2/1/25
AtticusMatlock said:
What I'm speculating based on what we know is that two mistakes happened:

1) Blackhawk was flying too high.
2) Blackhawk crew was confused by ATC, was tracking the wrong plane, and didn't see this one.

NVG likely made tracking more difficult. The NTSB report will have an analysis of the visual angles and we'll know how difficult the plane was to see at the key moments. It's easy to look at things from a top-down map and wonder how it wasn't visualized. But when you're in the seat looking through NVG and glass the views are quite different. Plane may have approached from a visual blind spot.


Spot on
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one safe place
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In reply to WolfCall • 9:42a, 2/1/25
WolfCall said:
Philip J Fry said:
I don't buy the whole not able to see the airplane business. It was eye level. It's not like they were looking down on it and losing it to light noise
^ This!

If it was that difficult for pilots and SSg crewman to see the plane, then no helicopters should ever be allowed to fly that route at night when planes are landing.
I am going to go out on a limb and predict there will be fewer helicopters flights around that airport in the future. It is a shame that so many people had to die before they realized the need to take action.
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78669AG
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In reply to stetson • 9:42a, 2/1/25
stetson said:
They were off the route and above the maximum altitude.


Idk why its so hard for ppl to grasp this. The heli is at fault and no one else
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WolfCall
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In reply to Kenneth_2003 • 9:42a, 2/1/25
AG
Kenneth_2003 said:
WolfCall said:
stetson said:
They were off the route and above the maximum altitude.
My rejoinder:

If it was that difficult for pilots and SSg crewman to see the plane when they were off the route and above the maximum altitude, then no helicopters should ever be allowed to fly the route (that they should have been flying) at night when planes are landing.
So if a car runs a red light driving on the wrong side of the road we should close the road?
^ False analogy in bold text supra.
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Catag94
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In reply to WolfCall • 10:07a, 2/1/25
AG
There are lots of things that play into pilots being able to see other aircraft.
In this case, consider the following:

-CJ is approaching from the 60's 10'Oclock
-CJ is a in a left banking turn
-CJ is higher and defending
-UH-60 is firing in a nose down attitude so to see this plane, they have to look up (fairly significant due to their own attitude and the altitude difference) AND left almost 90 degrees.
-uh-60 pilots may be seeing AA3130 on final for RW 1 and, are only looking for one aircraft. So, in their minds, there's no immediate need to look up and hard left for one.
-IF NVG were down, then at that time, it would be almost impossible to see this close plane up and left.

So, I'd suspect it's not that the COULD NOT see it, it's that many factors lead into them just NOT seeing even if it were possible.
So, it's not an issue with the route or the proceedsures.

All that said, if they are properly on H4, at or below 200' as directed, they still don't hit the thing.

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Southlake
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10:10a, 2/1/25
Many times I've been in the terminal area under approach control and they are calling out multiple traffic targets.

3 pilots; chins on the glareshield and none of us can find them - even with the aid of painting the traffic with their altitudes on the TCAS. Then, whoosh, a plane goes right by us.

Usually followed by, " GD! Never saw that MFer!"

If the traffic is at your same altitude, the pucker factor goes way up. If it gets too close and you don't see it, ATC usually will give you a climb / descent or vector - especially if the traffic is at your altitude.

Blackhawk called the traffic and was instructed to follow behind. I have no idea how or why they didn't comply.

Doesn't matter if it was male or female. We all F-Up the same.


One more thing. In the military, the IPs are at the top of the pyramid. Actually the Check Pilot / Flight Examiner / IP. To get those ratings, you have to be an expert in your field and generally the top, best and usually most experienced pilots in the squadron. The vetting process is rigorous and extremely thorough. They really are top notch aviators.
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Catag94
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10:14a, 2/1/25
AG
The more I think about it, the more I think it's problematic that the Helos are communicating with the tower on a different frequency. The CJ was never told about PAT25 and never heard that side of the conversation. If they had at least heard the tower controller talking to PAT60, I'll bet the co pilot would have been looking really hard for him.

Not blaming ATC, just saying this is a factor IMO.
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Southlake
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In reply to Catag94 • 10:18a, 2/1/25
Catag94 said:
The more I think about it, the more I think it's problematic that the Helos are communicating with the tower on a different frequency. The CJ was never told about PAT25 and never heard that side of the conversation. If they had at least heard the tower controller talking to PAT60, I'll bet the co pilot would have been looking really hard for him.

Not blaming ATC, just saying this is a factor IMO.
Absolutely. Situational awareness I over the radios is prime - especially if you're in poor visibility
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Catag94
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In reply to Southlake • 10:20a, 2/1/25
AG
Yeah. I've definitely look for lots of aircraft even if no factor, just because I could hear them talking to ATC and knew roughly where they'd be.

The poor crew of the CRJ had no idea there was any traffic that was a factor for them.
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Philip J Fry
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In reply to Catag94 • 10:21a, 2/1/25
AG
I would agree with that. Still, you have at least 2 in the BH cockpit. One of them should have had their eyes on their own damn flight path/altitude and kept their head on a swivel for commercial aircraft.

When the ATC is talking to the BH, it's over the open channel right? The CRJ should have heard the controllers asking them for visual and the instructions to fly behind them.
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Catag94
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In reply to Philip J Fry • 10:23a, 2/1/25
AG
Agreed.
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Southlake
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In reply to Philip J Fry • 10:50a, 2/1/25
Philip J Fry said:
I would agree with that. Still, you have at least 2 in the BH cockpit. One of them should have had their eyes on their own damn flight path/altitude and kept their head on a swivel for commercial aircraft.

When the ATC is talking to the BH, it's over the open channel right? The CRJ should have heard the controllers asking them for visual and the instructions to fly behind them.
Usually the military is on a UHF freq while civilian act are on VHF.

Same controller. You can hear the controller speak to the other side but you can't hear the answer. Almost more confusing sometimes and it jams up your radio.
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WolfCall
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In reply to Catag94 • 11:00a, 2/1/25
AG
Catag94 said:
There are lots of things that play into pilots being able to see other aircraft.
In this case, consider the following:

-CJ is approaching from the 60's 10'Oclock
-CJ is a in a left banking turn
-CJ is higher and defending
-UH-60 is firing in a nose down attitude so to see this plane, they have to look up (fairly significant due to their own attitude and the altitude difference) AND left almost 90 degrees.
-uh-60 pilots may be seeing AA3130 on final for RW 1 and, are only looking for one aircraft. So, in their minds, there's no immediate need to look up and hard left for one.
-IF NVG were down, then at that time, it would be almost impossible to see this close plane up and left.

So, I'd suspect it's not that the COULD NOT see it, it's that many factors lead into them just NOT seeing even if it were possible.
So, it's not an issue with the route or the proceedsures.

All that said, if they are properly on H4, at or below 200' as directed, they still don't hit the thing.
Good summary supra.
However, we won't have helicopter crashes (or near-misses - see infra) around Reagan if we restrict the airspace around Reagan - prohibiting helicopters. Helicopters should not get a fifth chance:
  • 4 - recent crash
  • 3 - near miss
  • 2 - near miss
  • 1 - helicopters getting to close

https://www.cnn.com/2025/01/30/us/dca-plane-helicopter-crash-invs/index.html
Quote:
Pilots had reported near-misses with helicopters at Reagan National Airport in the years before the deadly crash
By Casey Tolan, Majlie de Puy Kamp, Curt Devine, Haley Britzky and Oren Liebermann, CNN
Updated 6:49 PM EST, Fri January 31, 2025
Quote:
In the three years before the deadly collision between an Army helicopter and an American Airlines flight near Reagan National Airport, at least two other pilots reported near-misses with helicopters while landing at the airport, a CNN review of federal incident reports found.

On two occasions, passenger planes had to take evasive action to avoid colliding with a helicopter when trying to land at the airport, according to reports filed by pilots. In a third incident, two military helicopters got too close together, an air traffic controller reported.

And just a day before the fatal collision, another flight approaching Reagan was forced to abort its first landing and go around after a helicopter flew near its flight path, according to air traffic control audio.

Those previous scares are sure to gain more attention after the disaster over the Potomac River on Wednesday night, which is presumed to have killed 64 people aboard the plane and three Army servicemembers on a helicopter training flight......
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Catag94
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In reply to WolfCall • 11:12a, 2/1/25
AG
Consider close Reagan as had been proposed before. The airspace had plenty of reason for Helo traffic all around DCA.

I posted a simple Google map earlier showing all the Helo ports around it which include the Pentagon, the Whitehouse lawn, joint air bases, hospitals etc. the Helo traffic isn't stopping. The pentagon is less than a mile from DCA to the WNW and a Joint airbase is less than a mile 180 degrees from that (right on the east bank of the river). Many military and civilian VIPs travel via chopper all around there.

The normal commercial traffic passengers can Uber from a bit further away, I'd suggest.

Until a change, I'd certainly suggest pilots follow the freaking procedures and ATC be a bit more deliberate about separation of air traffic.
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Southlake
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In reply to Catag94 • 11:19a, 2/1/25
Catag94 said:
Consider close Reagan as had been proposed before. The airspace had plenty of reason for Helo traffic all around DCA.

I posted a simple Google map earlier chowing all the Helo ports around it which include the Pentagon, the Whitehouse lawn, joint air bases, hospitals etc. the Helo traffic isn't stopping. The pentagon is less than a mile from DCA to the WNW and a Joint airbase is less than a mile 180 degrees from that (right on the east bank of the river). Many military and civilian VIPs travel vis chopper all around there.

The normal commercial traffic passengers can Uber from a bit further away, I'd suggest.

Until a change, I'd certainly suggest pilots follow the freaking procedures and ATC be a bit more deliberate about separation of air traffic.
My speculation is that the helo traffic is part of the security of the Capitol / White House in some regard.

We will never know what that is - but it needs to be revised and adjusted.
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agAngeldad
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11:23a, 2/1/25
I'd be shocked if ATC is not a contributing factor. When the receive a "CA" alert they are required to issued a traffic alert. That did not happen. Attorney's will bring staffing into the picture which will become and issue.

DEI hiring did happen under Biden however, bigger than that is certification process. That has to be changed.

While I support Trump (most of the time) he should not have thrown everyone under the bus because of DEI. Does anyone recall the event in Europe where the father of 5, all lost in an aircraft accident, found the controllers address and went to his house and stabbed him to death? Not Trumps finest hour.

"If you got to tell em who you are, you ain't"
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CanyonAg77
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In reply to Philip J Fry • 11:28a, 2/1/25
AG
Philip J Fry said:
When the ATC is talking to the BH, it's over the open channel right? The CRJ should have heard the controllers asking them for visual and the instructions to fly behind them.

Think of it as the controller has two cell phones, one to each ear, and the microphones for both at or near his mouth.

Both callers can hear everything the controller says to them, and to the other caller. But only the controller hears both replies.

So if you're in the CRJ, and you hear the controller tell the Helo to watch for the CRJ, that should pique your interest. Maybe even ask the controller "What helicopter?"
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Catag94
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In reply to Southlake • 11:29a, 2/1/25
AG
PAT indicates it was a Priority Air Transport. It was a "Gold Top" Blackhawk used to transport VIPs in the area (pentagon etc).
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Philip J Fry
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In reply to agAngeldad • 11:30a, 2/1/25
AG
agAngeldad said:
I'd be shocked if ATC is not a contributing factor. When the receive a "CA" alert they are required to issued a traffic alert. That did not happen. Attorney's will bring staffing into the picture which will become and issue.

DEI hiring did happen under Biden however, bigger than that is certification process. That has to be changed.

While I support Trump (most of the time) he should not have thrown everyone under the bus because of DEI. Does anyone recall the event in Europe where the father of 5, all lost in an aircraft accident, found the controllers address and went to his house and stabbed him to death? Not Trumps finest hour.



When the democrats stop immediately bringing up gun control laws when some loon goes on a rampage, then I'll criticize Trump for trying to score political points at the wrong time.
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CanyonAg77
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In reply to Catag94 • 11:32a, 2/1/25
AG
If DCA were in the middle of any other major metro area, with all the highly restricted airspace, and all the military and civilian helicopters, not to mention noise abatement that further restricts airlines....

I would bet it would have been shut down long ago. But Congress critters and bureaucrats love having it close.

Dulles is less convenient, but only a 45 minute Metro ride from Downtown D.C.

I suspect that moves will be made soon to lower airline traffic into DCA, and shift it to Dulles.
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JFABNRGR
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In reply to agAngeldad • 11:33a, 2/1/25
AG
agAngeldad said:
I'd be shocked if ATC is not a contributing factor. When the receive a "CA" alert they are required to issued a traffic alert. That did not happen. Attorney's will bring staffing into the picture which will become and issue.

DEI hiring did happen under Biden however, bigger than that is certification process. That has to be changed.

While I support Trump (most of the time) he should not have thrown everyone under the bus because of DEI. Does anyone recall the event in Europe where the father of 5, all lost in an aircraft accident, found the controllers address and went to his house and stabbed him to death? Not Trumps finest hour.

If Trump would just have added to his comments "there has been a 65% increase in MISHAPS from 2023 to 2024 amongst ATC controllers" it would have changed the MSG to an overhaul system wide s long overdue.

If his future actions, only improve DCA we will know he was speaking of only this crash, but if he implements improvements to Air Safety system wide, then we'll know his comments were actually in reference to the whole system.
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