The Nets won at a 28 wins/season pace with their core of Deron/Humphries/Lopez, and now they've taken on the worst contract in basketball and paid double the market value for old Gerald Wallace while killing any chance for future trades or free agent additions. Great success!

But prepyag says the Heat also are inflexible so it doesn't matter!

It should probably be mentioned that Lopez only played 5 games last year. I mean, you want to be accurate and all.

Basically the additions to last year's team are Wallace, Lopez and Johnson. That's a pretty big offseason.

FTR I did factor in the Lopez injury. 28 win pace with Lopez/Deron for 2011 and 2012 (17 games). 28 win pace for all of 2012. And 29 win pace with Wallace/Deron in 2012 (16 games). Weird.

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28 win pace with Lopez/Deron for 2011 and 2012 (17 games).

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Lopez played 5 games last year. Do you really think 17 games over the course of two seasons is a good representation of how they would play together?

That's almost 1/4th of a season. How many games do you want to see? I guarantee if they had gone 13-4 in those games then you would be on here crowing about what a great a sign it is. But they didn't miss a beat when Lopez was injured - same mediocre pace.

You agree with prepyag that this team is ready to compete for the title long term?

I think they are third best in the east, second best until rose comes back.

Is this assclown actually arguing that Kris Humphries is a good player?

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I think they are third best in the east, second best until rose comes back.

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So by Prep's own admission, the Mavs could be the fifth best team in the West and the Nets the fourth team in the East.

Wow. What a huge chasm there is between that. I'm so embarrassed I may have to move from DFW.

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You and Internetfan have a fool-proof way to argue...you make things up then argue against them completely ignoring what was actually said. Where did I saw the Mavs could be 5th? They have no shot at 5th...the best they can come up with will be 7 or 8 if they get a few lucky bounces and timely injuries on other teams.

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The Nets won at a 28 wins/season pace with their core of Deron/Humphries/Lopez, and now they've taken on the worst contract in basketball and paid double the market value for old Gerald Wallace while killing any chance for future trades or free agent additions. Great success!

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Wow...you're kidding right; as previously mentioned Lopez played 5 games last year, one year removed from a 15 and 8 season as a 22 year old kid. Oh, and nevermind that Wallace only played in 16 games for the Nets as well, but don't let a thing like sense play a part in your arguement.

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Is this assclown actually arguing that Kris Humphries is a good player?

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Is this assclown really discounting the fact the Humphries is one of only 5 players to average a double double for the past 2 years? Let me give you that one again, ONE OF ONLY FIVE players int he WHOLE NBA that averaged a double double the past 2 seasons. But like I said earlier, don't let a thing like facts and making sense get in your way to personally attack someone.

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I think they are third best in the east, second best until rose comes back.

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What's funny about that? Please tell me who you think is better than the Nets right now in the East sans Miami and Chicago...

The Mav's were the 7 seed last year. Nobody behind them got better and the Mav's did get better. So luck should play no part in the Mav's being a low playoff seed. If the team gells they can be anywhere from 4 to 6. They should be on par with Memphis in my opinion.

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I think they are third best in the east, second best until rose comes back.

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They have a tremendous backcourt. Deron + Johnson + Wallace + Marshon Brooks. CJ Watson and Tyshawn Taylor as backup PGs is fine too. Their front court could be in trouble. Neither Brook nor Humphries are particularly good on defense. Based on the ESPN roster, Reggie Evans is their only competent backup, and he can't protect the rim either. I think they're 3rd behind Indiana.

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The Mav's were the 7 seed last year. Nobody behind them got better and the Mav's did get better. So luck should play no part in the Mav's being a low playoff seed. If the team gells they can be anywhere from 4 to 6. They should be on par with Memphis in my opinion.

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The Mavs getting better is very debatable. They added a bunch of mediocre basketball players.

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The Mav's were the 7 seed last year. Nobody behind them got better and the Mav's did get better. So luck should play no part in the Mav's being a low playoff seed. If the team gells they can be anywhere from 4 to 6. They should be on par with Memphis in my opinion.

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As mentioned above, the Mavs getting better is up for a debate (to anyone other than Mavs fans of course.) But for arguments sake, you say they can be 4-6 seed, so I'm assuming you're conceding OKC, LA, and SA...so you're saying they have a better team than the Clippers, Memphis, Portland, Utah, & Minnesota?

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The Mavs getting better is very debatable. They added a bunch of mediocre basketball players

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And the players they still had are a year older (marion and dirk).

They have a better team than Portland, Utah, and Minnesota. I think they're right above those teams until proven otherwise.

You forget that we still have Dirk.

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you make things up then argue against them completely ignoring what was actually said.

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it's really funny that you are calling other people out on this, bc you do this all the time.

Source: the long Deron Williams thread from last week or two weeks ago.

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They have a better team than Portland, Utah, and Minnesota. I think they're right above those teams until proven otherwise.

You forget that we still have Dirk.

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That puts them right back where they were last year.

Which is fine, considering they completely busted on their major FA signing dreams and lost a bunch of key players (Kidd/Terry/etc).

The Mavs got better. Not better in the sense that they are championship contenders, but they won't miss the departed players.

I'll take Kaman and Brand over Haywood and Mahimi anyday. I'll also take 24yo Collison over 40yo Kidd who set career lows across the board last year. And empty space is better than Lam Lam. None of those players will be missed. I still like Terry and think he is a better offensive player than Mayo, but the Mavs organization liked OJ better overall.

I get that no one is scared of Mayo, Kaman, Brand and Collison, but that group is better than Terry, Haywood, Mahimi and 40yo Kidd. Ergo, Mavs got better. For the Mavs to be a worse (or equal) team to last year then Dirk's numbers will have to drop precipitously or he gets hurt.

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They have a better team than Portland, Utah, and Minnesota. I think they're right above those teams until proven otherwise.

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They're not better than Minnesota when rubio is healthy. They can fight it out with Utah and Portland for the 7th and 8th seeds, but that's all they'll be shooting for. Think Semi-Pro fighting it out for 4th place and have a huge celebration when it's won.

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You forget that we still have Dirk.

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Wasn't he on the team last year too? And isn't he a year older?

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it's really funny that you are calling other people out on this, bc you do this all the time.

Source: the long Deron Williams thread from last week or two weeks ago.

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Yet again, I ask you to show me where I said something, and you refuse to do so...what's that, the 5th time on this thread you make a comment and can't back it up?

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That puts them right back where they were last year.

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"but, but, we have Dirk and his friend Kamen, and, and...

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The Mav's were the 7 seed last year. Nobody behind them got better and the Mav's did get better. So luck should play no part in the Mav's being a low playoff seed. If the team gells they can be anywhere from 4 to 6. They should be on par with Memphis in my opinion.
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As mentioned above, the Mavs getting better is up for a debate (to anyone other than Mavs fans of course.) But for arguments sake, you say they can be 4-6 seed, so I'm assuming you're conceding OKC, LA, and SA...so you're saying they have a better team than the Clippers, Memphis, Portland, Utah, & Minnesota?

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I wasn't nearly as definitive as you are painting me to be. I said they have a chance to be as good as the 4th seed in the West.

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I get that no one is scared of Mayo, Kaman, Brand and Collison, but that group is better than Terry, Haywood, Mahimi and 40yo Kidd.

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Collison is the same caliber player as Kidd was last year, albeit a different style. Terry is better than Mayo. Kaman is decent offensively and bad defensively and never healthy. Brand is an upgrade. They still need to replace Delonte West.

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The Mavs getting better is very debatable. They added a bunch of mediocre basketball players.

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The players the Mavs added are better than the players they lost.

If we're assuming the sum of all the parts (Dirk with a full offseason of work and not being lazy, worth of players added - worth of players lost), the Mavs absolutely did get better and that is not debatable.

But if the Mavs as a team got better is debatable. It's a team cohesion issue. Kidd was a locker room leader, and a guy that everyone respected. JET was a longtime Mav and also a team leader. That's where the Mavericks took the biggest hit. If guys emerge as leaders and Carlisle can sell his philosophy, the team will be much better. If the parts don't work together and the guys don't work as a unit, the Mavs could be an absolute disaster. No way to tell until the season.

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If we're assuming the sum of all the parts (Dirk with a full offseason of work and not being lazy, worth of players added - worth of players lost), the Mavs absolutely did get better and that is not debatable.

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Yes it is debatable. Mavs' fans are way overrating Mayo, Kaman, and Collison. Now, they could improve under different coaching, but that's being pretty optimistic.

And I do think Cuban did a great job rallying after losing out on Deron Williams. But whether they actually improved, that I am not so sure about.

No one is putting too much value on Kaman. While he is not great, he makes up for losing Haywood and Ian M in one spot. That is more on how bad Haywood was than how good Kaman is.

[This message has been edited by keithd03 (edited 7/19/2012 10:20a).]

To put some numbers behind it in terms of PER.

24yo OJ Mayo PER: 14.76 < 34yo Jason Terry PER: 15.80 = -1.04
33yo Elton Brand PER: 18.07 > 25yo Ian Mahimni PER: 13.5 = +4.57
30yo Chris Kaman PER:15.42 > 32yo Brendan Haywood PER: 12.95 = +2.47
24yo Darren Collison PER: 13.62 > 39yo Jason Kidd PER: 13.11 = +0.51

Overall PER difference: +6.51
Overall Age difference: -19

Not to mention that whoever replaces Lam Lam's 20mpg will certainly improve upon his 9.26 PER last year. The Mavs got better and younger this offseason "on paper". They didn't improve enough to compete with OKC in the west but they improved upon their roster.

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No one is putting too much value on Kaman. While he is not great, he makes up for losing Haywood and Ian M in one spot. That is more on how bad Haywood was than how good Kaman is.

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You are forgetting Delonte West and Dahntay Jones.

28yo Delonte PER: 15.4 PER > 31yo Dahntay PER: 10.3 = -5.1

Overall PER difference = +1.4

Thus, quite debatable.

So overall difference of +1.4 BEFORE you take out the negative Odom effect?

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So overall difference of +1.4 BEFORE you take out the negative Odom effect?

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It's impossible to judge how much of a difference Odom's replacement will make at this point. Obviously it *should* be positive, but to what extent remains to be seen. Just like it remains to be seen what effect another year will have on Dirk and Marion. Last year they saw a 1.7 and 2.1 drop in PER, respectively.

Are we sure that Delonte isn't returning?

If you have to go to PER, you're officially in "splitting hairs" territory. If the Mavs are better next year (and I think they will be), it will be because Dirk has officially shook his post-title jet lag/depression at losing his championship team. Also, JET was operating with hurt feelings for the entire season since he knew he wasn't getting a new deal from Cuban.

And who knows what was going on with Kidd other than the fact that he won a ring and suddenly remembered how old he was.

But yeah, these players are "good enough" but not necessarily good, if that makes sense. I'll be watching next year to see what Cunningham has anyway.

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Are we sure that Delonte isn't returning?

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No, not at all. The Mavs want him. Bringing him back would be a very good thing for the Mavs.

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And isn't he a year older?

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Isn't everyone in the league? Seriously, one of the dumbest things I've ever seen posted on this board.

tim duncan and manu ginobli arent exactly reversing in age the last time i checked?

if you need a PER to answer these questions, you are completely fool when it comes to bball.

Is Kaman better than Haywood?
Is brand better than Mahimi?
Is collison better than Kidd?
Is Dahntay Jones better than the Lamar Odom of last year?
Does OJ Mayo give you the same scoring punch as Jet terry?

The only debatable question there is OJ vs Jet. Keep in mind OJ averaged 18ppg when he was a starter.