quote:

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So what is wrong with
"Dirk is a top 50 NBA player all time and led an underdog Mavs team to a championship without a second consistent scorer in a truly magnificent playoff run. He is one of the best pure shooters of all time and created tremendous matchup problems by being so tall, yet still very agile. He worked incredibly hard, played with a ton of passion and was a very good teammate." as his Legacy?

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Change top 50 to top 20, Add MVP season and Finals appearance, add in a line about 7 feet tall and being internationally developed and that's fine. And his legacy has room to grow as he's still racking up all-NBA seasons

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Your list has 11 players while missing out on a top 5 guy and overcompensating for defense. Mine has 13 players with all top 9 plus 4 more in the top 20.

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Really?
I count:
1. Jordan
2. Hakeem
3. Duncan
4. Kobe
5. Kareem
6. Shaq
7. Bird
8. Russell*
9. Wilt*

Who are the other two?

It doesn't overcompensate for defense, it addresses defense, something your list does not do.

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West, Oscar, Moses

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West never won an MVP, so he wouldn't be on yours, either.

Oscar never won a FInals until some kid named Lew Alcindor took him there in his 11th season. He wouldn't be on your list either.

Moses didn't make 10 All-NBA teams, so he doesn't make your list either.

So the three you point out fail to make your list as well. And honestly, with Magic added to my list, I am good with that grouping being the top ten of all time without anyone else needed to be in the conversation.

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On this same page someone linked the greatest basketball columnist and historian of our generation putting Dirk at 12-13. If Simmons puts Dirk above Havlicek you have to take it seriously.

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No, what Simmons said is that to see how the Championship changes Dirk and if it does, he could jump Havlicek (Who Simmons overrates because he is a Boston player.)
But Hondo has already been passed by Kobe and LeBron since Simmons wrote that book.
I've got so many criticisms of Simmons book (which I throughly enjoyed) that I don't really know where to start. One is his obvious love of his guys. He loves Walton and I am not really sure why 100 games of Walton ranks top 30. We never really got a full season of Walton. His MVP year, he missed almost 20 games bookended by seasons he missed ~30 games. What happened to Walton was truly sad, because he obviously had a ton of talent. He missed 351 of his first 574 games (seven seasons.) That encompassed his entire 20s. Sad, but that isn't a top 30 player to me. However, the only full season he played, he was 6th man of the year on the Championship Celtics. I thought it was a very good read, but you can't escape the Sports Guy being the Sports Guy.

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Really?
I count:
1. Jordan
2. Hakeem
3. Duncan
4. Kobe
5. Kareem
6. Shaq
7. Bird
8. Russell*
9. Wilt*

Who are the other two?

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If you add Russell then you should add Pettit and Cousy as probable Finals MVPs and 3x All-defense. That's 2 top 20 players added to the list with Magic removed and future Durant probably never having a chance.

My list adds Magic and Dirk to your list. And you can't just write off West, Oscar and Moses without a deep analysis. The list is great but obviously not final. You'll have to dig deeper to find a random stat criteria that fits your personally chosen top 10 players

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No, what Simmons said is that to see how the Championship changes Dirk and if it does, he could jump Havlicek (Who Simmons overrates because he is a Boston player.)

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He said Dirk is *about to pass* Hondo, Pettit, and Elgin. That's a reference to longevity stats that Dirk is expected to hit as his career winds down at a steady pace. For those that care about stats you can't ignore Dirk hitting the "obscure stat" of being a top 10 all-time scorer

[This message has been edited by InternetFan02 (edited 8/1/2012 10:04p).]

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If you add Russell then you should add Pettit and Cousy as probable Finals MVPs and 3x All-defense. 2 top 20 contenders.

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Do you know something i don't about their defense? Neither of us were around within 20 years of when they were great.

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And you can't just write off West, Oscar and Moses without a deep analysis.

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You did. You list doesn't include them, despite being a more inclusive list.

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You'll have to dig deeper to find a random stat criteria that fits your personally chosen top 10 players

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So will you. You have a list with 13 players, yet don't include Moses, Oscar and West. You have to find the same fault with yours that you find in mine.

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For those that care about stats you can't ignore Dirk hitting the "obscure stat" of being a top 10 all-time scorer

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But you were just ripping on Malone's 'hollow' stats. Dirk's stats are clearly dropping. 4 straight years of points dropping and 7 straight years of rebounds dropping. Worst FG% since he was a rookie.

But in any event, Dirk is a great scorer and will put up another 20ppg year this year.

So in summary:
IF02 and a few other fans: Dirk is top 15!
GSoup and a few other fans: Dirk is great, but not quite there right now.

Dirk is likely to hover around the top 25 after his career is done. It will be up to the person talking to determine whether that is top 20 or top 30 but that's pretty much his range.

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quote:
If you add Russell then you should add Pettit and Cousy as probable Finals MVPs and 3x All-defense. 2 top 20 contenders.

Do you know something i don't about their defense? Neither of us were around within 20 years of when they were great.

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They were like the Kobe and Duncan of the 50s. I believe the onus is on you to prove why they wouldn't have made all-defense, if you really are trying to make an all-inclusive top 10 list.

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quote:
You'll have to dig deeper to find a random stat criteria that fits your personally chosen top 10 players

So will you. You have a list with 13 players, yet don't include Moses, Oscar and West. You have to find the same fault with yours that you find in mine.

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I never said this was a definitive top 13 list. I said my agenda was to show an exclusive group that would clearly put Dirk in the top 20. I'm not trying to nail down an exact list, but being part of this list should clearly keep Dirk away from top 50 territory and the Worthy, Drexler, Pierce types.

As I look at the Simmons pyramid, I'm willing to back off the top 20 claim and compromise on Dirk being comfortably listed in Level 4, which is top 24. Lebron will definitely move into the Pantheon after 2 years (which increases the Pantheon to 14) and Garnett could move up from 22 if he continues his resurgence. It wouldn't be crazy if he did finally get a Finals MVP. Other threats to move into level 4 soon are Wade and Nash, and of course Durant.

So a comfortable top 24 for Dirk with a ceiling of top 15 that's still in flux.

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quote:
For those that care about stats you can't ignore Dirk hitting the "obscure stat" of being a top 10 all-time scorer

But you were just ripping on Malone's 'hollow' stats.

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Drifting into prepyag territory...

[This message has been edited by InternetFan02 (edited 8/1/2012 11:30p).]

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They were like the Kobe and Duncan of the 50s. I believe the onus is on you to prove why they wouldn't have made all-defense, if you really are trying to make an all-inclusive top 10 list.

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I couldn't argue either way. Neither could you.

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I said my agenda was to show an exclusive group that would clearly put Dirk in the top 20.

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At last we know your agenda rather than my speculation of it.

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So a comfortable top 24 for Dirk with a ceiling of top 15 that's still in flux.

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I am actually amazed. Truly. I applaud it.

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Garnett could move up from 22 if he continues his resurgence. It wouldn't be crazy if he did finally get a Finals MVP.

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I don't think so. I don't think Boston can beat a healthy Bulls or healthy Heat. If they did make it to the Finals somehow, I don't think they could beat a healthy Thunder. I think Garnett is where he is - and again, too high due to Boston error.

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t being part of this list should clearly keep Dirk away from top 50 territory and the Worthy, Drexler, Pierce types.

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I don't think anyone puts Dirk there. A regular season MVP assures that.

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Prepayag in a nutshell:

Critiques Dirk for only having one ring.

Says Karl Malone and John Stockton are better despite winning no rings.

Classic.

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I'm never the one that brings up Dirk and rings...it's only when mav fans use his 1 ring as a means to push him into the NBA legend category that I discuss it at all. But nice try though

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Dirk is top 15-20. Without a doubt dude.

Top 50 is being severely underrated

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Oh, well I guess that settles it, although I"m sure there's a few legitimate NBA greats that would disagree with you, but what do they know? And no, it's not even close to being "without a doubt" to anyone other than maverick fans.

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Who are the 14-19 players better than Dirk?

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Why bother? You'll just find a reason to discredit about 13 of them, mainly because they're not as "classy" as Dirk.
But here goes:

Jordan
Hakeem
Wilt
Russell
Kobe
Lebron
Wade
Shaq
Duncan
Bird
Magic
Kareem
Cousy
West
Malone
Pettit
Oscar
Erving
Baylor
Barkley

And that's leaving off guys like Walt Frazier, Isiah Thomas, Moses Malone, Reggie Miller, George Gervin, Pete Maravich, and David Robinson...fire away at why Dirk's better than half of that list with your maverick colored glasses...

[This message has been edited by prepyag03 (edited 8/2/2012 8:35a).]

It's not "using the ring" to push him anywhere. The ring cemented what was already a phenomenal career. You're in the severe minority if you don't believe that.

I actually found an even simpler criteria that should help Guitarsoup make his top 10 list:

Multiple MVPs + Multiple Finals MVPs:

Russell* 5+9=14 (Retroactively won 9 Finals MVPs from 1959 to 1968, assuming Cousy wins 1957 award since that was his MVP year and then basic assumption that Russell wins the others up to 1969 when West won the 1st)
Jordan 6+5=11
Kareem 6+2=8
Magic 3+3=6
Bird 3+3=6
Wilt: 4+2=6 (retroactive 1967 winner)
Duncan 2+3=5
Shaq 1+3=4

Leaves out Kobe and Hakeem, who you could easily argue should have had 2 MVPs

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quote:
t being part of this list should clearly keep Dirk away from top 50 territory and the Worthy, Drexler, Pierce types.

I don't think anyone puts Dirk there. A regular season MVP assures that.

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You've been labeling him a top 50 player on this thread, and I recall in the past you lectured us that he would never crack the top 50 until he won a title.

quote:

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quote:
Who are the 14-19 players better than Dirk?


Why bother? You'll just find a reason to discredit about 13 of them, mainly because they're not as "classy" as Dirk.
But here goes:

Jordan
Hakeem
Wilt
Russell
Kobe
Lebron
Wade
Shaq
Duncan
Bird
Magic
Kareem
Cousy
West
Malone
Pettit
Oscar
Erving
Baylor
Barkley

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Why did you stop at 20? Who are the 50 players better than Dirk?

[This message has been edited by InternetFan02 (edited 8/2/2012 9:25a).]

Wade is not better than Dirk.

Oscar, Barkley, Malone, Cousy, Baylor are all debateable as well.

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(I believe David Robinson politely returned Hakeem's 2nd MVP after stealing it from him in 95)

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Then did Dirk return his 2007 MVP after getting bounced by GSW?

Damnit I edited that Hakeem thing like 10 seconds after posted it after I forgot about Kobe only having 1.

But obviously Kobe should have had Nash's 2nd MVP, not Dirk's.

And **** Shaq only has 1 as well. Delete post.

Or change to MVPs + Finals MVPs >= 3, but now we're getting complicated again

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But obviously Kobe should have had Nash's 2nd MVP, not Dirk's.

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Nash's 2nd MVP was the year the Lakers had like 30 wins and got Bynum in the lottery. Has a player that didn't make the playoffs ever win the MVP?

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But obviously Kobe should have had Nash's 2nd MVP, not Dirk's.

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Nash's 2nd MVP was the year the Lakers had like 30 wins and got Bynum in the lottery. Has a player that didn't make the playoffs ever win the MVP?

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No that was Nash's 1st MVP in 2005 when Shaq should have won. Now this thread has devolved to who can most screw up looking up stuff on b-r

OH yeah, forgot Garnett weaseled an MVP in there.

Let's also mention how Karl Malone shouldn't have won either of his. Duncan or Zo should have won it in 99 and Jordan should have won it in 97.

Because **** Karl Malone.

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Wade is not better than Dirk.

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Wade's career averages are all better than Dirk's sans rebounds and 3pt% and he's only behind Dirk by 3 in rebounds. He has a Finals MVP and ren't you Mav fans big on claiming "well Dirk's one ring cements him as a legend"...well Wade has 2 rings and the stats? He is better than Dirk.

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Oscar, Barkley, Malone, Cousy, Baylor are all debateable as well

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I'll give you Bob Cousy as debateable (although I'm pretty sure they named an award after him, not so much for Dirk.)

So you're saying that Dirk is better than a guy that averaged a triple double for a full season and was either 1 rebound or 1 assist per game away from doing in again in 4 other seasons (not to mention almost for his career), a player that averaged a double double w/ over 20 pts and 11 rebounds per game (averaging the same amount of ppg as Dirk btw), the NBA's 2nd leading scoring in league history (who also averaged a double double for his career and has higher career averages than Dirk is everything but 3pt%), and a guy who averaged 27.4 ppg and 13.5 rpg as well as having a higher apg average than Dirk?

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Why did you stop at 20? Who are the 50 players better than Dirk?

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See quote below:

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Who are the 14-19 players better than Dirk?

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[This message has been edited by prepyag03 (edited 8/2/2012 11:53a).]

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Why bother? You'll just find a reason to discredit about 13 of them, mainly because they're not as "classy" as Dirk.
But here goes:

Jordan
Hakeem
Wilt
Russell
Kobe
Lebron
Wade
Shaq
Duncan
Bird
Magic
Kareem
Cousy
West
Malone
Pettit
Oscar
Erving
Baylor
Barkley

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Do you not agree that this is where he belongs?
The guys in bold are his absolute peers.

Please get out of here w/ Reggie Miller.

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Do you not agree that this is where he belongs?
The guys in bold are his absolute peers.

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No I don't...please see my post above.

I agree that he is somewhere in that grouping. You can make arguments for and against each player in there.

Moses Malone would be ahead of Dirk.

If you are going with Simmons' version, I think that there is a top Tier that Dirk isn't in.

Simmons' Revised Order+LeBron at the end:
Jordan
Russell
KAJ
Magic
Bird
Wilt
Duncan
Kobe
West
Big O
Hakeem
Shaq
Moses
LeBron
Not sure anyone else has an argument to be included right now.

The next level to me includes (no order):
Hondo
Baylor
Dirk
Cousey
Barkley
Karl
Pettit
Robinson
Garnett
Pippen
Isiah
DrJ
Wade
Walton would be included if not for the injuries. Don't think he played long enough.
Stockton would be my next guy to add, but I think Stockton would have been pretty worthless without one of the best PnR PFs ever. I don't think you could count on Stockton to carry a team like you could with Kidd or Isiah.

Saying Dirk is only top 50 is probably undervaluing him.
Saying Dirk is top 20 is probably over-valuing him.

After looking at y'alls lists...At this point in his career... safe to say he is in the 25-35 range. Still has some room to move up if he somehow wins another championship in the next 2/3 years while he is still an elite player. I think that is unlikely though. Miami is probably going to gobble them all up for the next decade.

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Wade's career averages are all better than Dirk's sans rebounds and 3pt% and he's only behind Dirk by 3 in rebounds. He has a Finals MVP and ren't you Mav fans big on claiming "well Dirk's one ring cements him as a legend"...well Wade has 2 rings and the stats? He is better than Dirk.

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Lmao, yeah, don't look at the facts, rings, stats, etc...

FYI. Dirk will finish #6 in NBA scoring all time behind Kareem, Malone, Jordan, Wilt, and Kobe. Eventually, Lebron will pass him.

He's at 24,134 at 19th all time. 6th place (passing Shaq) is 28,596. He needs 4,462 points. If Dirk plays 3.5-4 seasons and is healthy, he has it.

Yeah, Bron is only 5,000 points behind Dirk and will cross the 20k point mark this year. If LeBron keeps up the pace he is at right now (about 27.5ppg for 80 games a year) he will be 13th all-time in scoring when he turns 30. That's freakin insane. He will be 6 years off from breaking Kareem's record at that point. If Durant keeps going at his pace, he will also break the 25k point mark when he is 30. That is sick.

Almost 800 posts of pounding sand.

I love how prepyags top 20 list only had 1 Malone listed. We've already seen him imply that Karl is the 2nd greatest of all-time since rings don't matter to him. And no one would leave Moses out of the top 20. So it's pretty obvious he doesn't realize there are 2 Malones in nba history.

and post 800

Here is the first post of the next 800.

The march to 1000 posts is on!

Stockton.. ..... I'm sure you know, leads the nba in all time steals. Karel did not help him with that. He has 200 more than #2 and His pg # is up there with Jordan.

FYI

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Stockton.. ..... I'm sure you know, leads the nba in all time steals. Karel did not help him with that. He has 200 more than #2 and His pg # is up there with Jordan.

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He also has 200 more regular season games than any other point guard and is 3rd all time in games behind two centers. I would imagine that the point guard with 20% more games than anyone else would have a lot more steals than anyone else, especially if they were halfway decent at stealing. That said, a lot of poor defensive players have led the league in steals. Larry Hughes, Allen Iverson, Kendall Gill, etc.