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And you are double-counting defense

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I'm not double-counting defense. You are ignoring it completely so you can add Dirk. 3 MVPs and 5 Rings is enough to overcome defensive inability in my opinion. YMMV.

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Or if you look at your second list that only asks for 5 years of longevity then Durant could conceivably make the list at age 25.

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The same number of players have been All-NBA 10 times as have been All-NBA First Team 5 times. I think being a top 5 for 5 years is more impressive than being top 15 for 10 years. What is more impressive: Iverson [or Dominique or Ewing] being All-NBA for 7 years or Kidd being All-NBA first team for 5? Who is the better all-time player? What about Iceman Gervin with 11 All-NBA and All-ABA selections? I would take Kidd over all of them.

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Hard to quantify Lebron's legacy when he's still ascending. He will most definitely pass Dirk soon. Why not wait until he hits 10 All-NBA teams and age 30 in 2 years to really start solidifying his legacy?

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He has 3 MVPs, a title and 6 All-NBA First teams. His legacy is already being written and he is already above Dirk. If LeBron and Dirk died in a tragic blimp accident today, LeBron would be above Dirk in all-time Rankings and no one outside DFW would argue it. 3 MVPs. Scoring Title. It is unquestionable.

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The best way to avoid bias

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The fact is that you aren't avoiding bias. You are injecting your own and rejecting anything that questions it and Dirk. Maybe you don't know what bias is.

I don't think that you can consider the greatest players of all time without considering their ability on both ends of the court. And in many all-time lists, Magic has taken a beating because of that. When you look at the other all-time greats, all were great at both ends. For most of Magic's career, the Lakers had to hide his defensive woes with Michael Cooper.

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In fact, Durant will likely never make your list of all-time greats either. Or if you look at your second list that only asks for 5 years of longevity then Durant could conceivably make the list at age 25.

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Which would be an incredible feat, considering it took LeBron until he was 27, Magic when he was 28, Jordan when he was 28 and Bird when he was 28. But considering that Durant only played 1 year of college (not three years like Jordan, the timeline makes sense. But again, you will never accept anything that credits other players and leaves out Dirk. You are way too blinded. You can't just accept Dirk is a great player that isn't even close to the conversation for top 10 players of all time like every rational, intelligent Mavs fan.

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The title seals it? So Robery Horry is better than Michael Jordan? If title's seal player debates right?

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That is idiotic. We are talking about titles where someone is the main player. No one cares about Darko's ring.

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 8/1/2012 12:24p).]

Why are we even talking about Robert Horry? Was that dude ever even a second banana?

Compare that to Malone, who at one point was making nearly triple John Stockton's salary as the second highest paid player on the team.

Malone was a Ninja Turtle. Horry was a Beebop, at best. Maybe a Rocksteady.

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He has 3 MVPs, a title and 6 All-NBA First teams. His legacy is already being written and he is already above Dirk. If LeBron and Dirk died in a tragic blimp accident today, LeBron would be above Dirk in all-time Rankings and no one outside DFW would argue it. 3 MVPs. Scoring Title. It is unquestionable.

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My bottom line is that Lebron still has plenty of time to move up or down. Has Moses malone made any of your lists? What if he had died in a tragic blimp accident at age 27 in 1983(same age as Lebron). 3 MVPs, Finals MVP, multiple all-defense and rebounding titles. But the rest of his career was relatively insignificant and helps keep him on the bottom end of the pantheon. All I'm saying is it's too soon to put a nice ribbon on Lebron's legacy. Wait until he's had a decade - common sense for any player.

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The fact is that you aren't avoiding bias. You are injecting your own and rejecting anything that questions it and Dirk. Maybe you don't know what bias is.

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You're the one who keeps adding extra criteria to keep Dirk out when individual defense is already properly accounted for in the MVP/All-NBA votes

[This message has been edited by InternetFan02 (edited 8/1/2012 12:35p).]

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when individual defense is already properly accounted for in the MVP/All-NBA votes

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You repeating it doesn't make it true.

In all honesty, I think Dirk is an easy top 50 player all time, and arguably top 30 player all time. That's legend stuff right there, considering that there are 300 or so in the HOF. IF you can count yourself among the top 1/6 of the players in the hall, not only all NBA players ever, you are talking legend stuff.

Now, Lebron James, when it's all said and done, will be in the GOAT conversation. And he may not be the GOAT, but he will be there to be talked about without it being completely ridiculous. And when you're talking about the GOAT, you're talking about maybe 10 guys in the history of professional basketball.

So some folks may say "legend" only pertains to those players in the GOAT conversation. That seems to be what Zack Morris is saying in this thread. But to me, if you are in the conversation for greatest of all time, you are a legend. But if you are a legend, you might not necessarily be in the GOAT convo.

Off-season

Everybody in this thread has a huge bias about where Dirk ranks all-time, both positively and negatively.

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I can't remember another NBA superstar having his personality transformed by an NBA title; if it happened with, say, Hakeem Olajuwon, I don't remember reading about it. Dirk's next few years will be interesting for historical purposes: In my basketball book, I ranked Bird, Duncan, Havlicek, Baylor, Erving, Pettit, Malone and Barkley as the greatest forwards of all time (in that order). Dirk already leapfrogged the last three; he's about to jump the next three; and if that happens, suddenly he's one of the best 12 or 13 players of all time by any calculation. He's also the greatest international basketball player ever — and actually, you could argue that the distance between Dirk and the next best foreign guy (Gasol, Ginobili) is more like a chasm.

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This is from March 2012.

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when individual defense is already properly accounted for in the MVP/All-NBA votes

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You repeating it doesn't make it true.

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Same to you. The only way to fairly incorporate all-defense would be to retroactively create an all-offense team, OPOY and ignore all-NBA/MVP. Because great defenders are already rewarded on the all-NBA teams. How did Tyson Chandler make all-NBA over someone like Al Jefferson? How did Ben Wallace make it all those years? Why did Kidd make 1st teams instead of 2nd/3rd?

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How did Tyson Chandler make all-NBA over someone like Al Jefferson? How did Ben Wallace make it all those years?

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Tyson made it because of media hype, congrats on leading Mavs to title and being in NYC while Jefferson was in Utah.

Just like Dirk won MVP in his worst season in three years. But he led his team to the Finals the year before and his team had the best record in the league. You like to quote Simmons, so I know you remember the fact that he said Dirk shouldn't have won the MVP in 07. Nash put up his best season ever with 19/12 on 53%/46%/90% shooting (career highs in assists, FG% and 3FG%). Kobe led the league in scoring for the second straight season with 32/6/5. LeBron put up 27/7/6. Wade put up 28/8/5 and was coming off winning an NBA Championship with a pretty weak team. Wade also led the league in PER at 28.9. Yao even put up 25/9, just slightly better than Dirk's 25/9. But MVPs are often team accomplishments. Or in Karl Malone's 97 case, Lifetime Achievement Award.

But to pretend the MVP includes defense is idiotic. Each voter makes up their own criteria. For many it is best player on best team. For others it is best stats.

But the MVP voters are often completely stupid. There is no other explanation for Duncan to finish above LeBron in 2007 on Duncan's 20/11 and LeBron's 27/7/6. Parker was the one that drove the 07 team and he won the Finals MVP for it.

I guess the proper question for two pages ago would be what are you trying to determine with this ranking?

Here is another one:
How many players have:
1. Won a Championship in their prime
2. Led the league in three major stat categoies
3. Won MVP

Pretty simple criteria, right?

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congrats on leading Mavs to title

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Police this thread, dude!

Everyone has talked about the huge impact that Tyson had on leading the Mavs to a title and that is why Cuban should have shelled out for him for the past two years. Is that wrong?

I think Chandler was a huge missing peice, but Dirk led them to the title.

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Everyone has talked about the huge impact that Tyson had

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Yes

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leading the Mavs to a title

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No

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Cuban should have shelled out for him for the past two years

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Yes

Fair enough. I think after Dirk, Tyson was the most important piece to the Mavs' title.

You already knew that though.

Your subtle digs at your least-favorite player do not go unappreciated.

[This message has been edited by Judge (edited 8/1/2012 2:38p).]

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Dirk led them to the title.

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In 2011 he had his worst PPG since 2003, his worst rebound average since 1999, and his worst FG% since his rookie year. Even is ppg in the playoffs were only 1.8 ppg better than his career playoff average and his playof FG% was the lowest it had been in the previous 3 playoffs.

Honest question...if he led them to the title, why couldn't he do it before? I mean he's had better seasons than in 2011, so why haven't the mavs won more than one championship if Dirk has been there for all this time?



[This message has been edited by prepyag03 (edited 8/1/2012 2:46p).]

Karl Malone is my least favorite player of all time, followed by Stockton.

I was openly cheering for Dirk to win it all in 2011. I disliked him years ago, but much like the Russian crowd in Rocky IV, the underdog won me over. Dirk works extremely hard, is a class act and is entertaining to watch. There isn't much to dislike about him, especially since he cut his nasty Scola hair.

Agreed that Tyson was the 2nd most important as he gave us a defensive presence in the paint and could catch the ball on offense. 2 things the Mavs have not had.

Guitarsoup and Prepyag make a great tag team - it's like Shawn Michaels and Marty Jannety

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The same number of players have been All-NBA 10 times as have been All-NBA First Team 5 times. I think being a top 5 for 5 years is more impressive than being top 15 for 10 years. What is more impressive: Iverson [or Dominique or Ewing] being All-NBA for 7 years or Kidd being All-NBA first team for 5? Who is the better all-time player? What about Iceman Gervin with 11 All-NBA and All-ABA selections? I would take Kidd over all of them.

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Gervin had 9 selections. All of those players you listed had less than 10. 10 years all-nba > 5 years 1st team. Look at Dirk vs Kidd.

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I don't think that you can consider the greatest players of all time without considering their ability on both ends of the court. And in many all-time lists, Magic has taken a beating because of that. When you look at the other all-time greats, all were great at both ends. For most of Magic's career, the Lakers had to hide his defensive woes with Michael Cooper.

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And Dirk takes a beating due to his defense, stats and quantity of awards. Guys like Moses, West, Oscar will always be considered ahead of him. But he's still on the list.

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Wade put up 28/8/5 and was coming off winning an NBA Championship with a pretty weak team. Wade also led the league in PER at 28.9.

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lol at Wade winning MVP in 07

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But to pretend the MVP includes defense is idiotic. Each voter makes up their own criteria. For many it is best player on best team. For others it is best stats.

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Its more idiotic to say it doesn't look at defense. Just this year Lebron won it over Durant with defense being a factor. Bill Russell says hi again. If Dwight Howard had led the Magic past the Bulls to the 1 seed the past 2 seasons he would have won MVP primarily due to defense.

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I guess the proper question for two pages ago would be what are you trying to determine with this ranking?

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I was just trying to help Prepyag do some research and actually contribute something useful for a change. But the big picture to me with the list of MVPs+Finals MVPs+10 all-nbas is that it solidifies Dirk as a top 20 player. And how many more current players have a chance to join the list? Definitely Lebron. Probably Durant. Then maybe Howard, Rose, Paul but a lot has to happen for them.

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How many players have:
1. Won a Championship in their prime
2. Led the league in three major stat categoies
3. Won MVP

Pretty simple criteria, right?

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Yes but not as simple as MVP + all-nba.

[This message has been edited by Internetfan02 (edited 8/1/2012 3:41p).]

[This message has been edited by Internetfan02 (edited 8/1/2012 3:43p).]

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Gervin had 9 selections.

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He had 7 in the NBA and 4 in the ABA.

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And Dirk takes a beating due to his defense, stats and quantity of awards.

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Rightfully so. So does Magic. But Magic can counter it with 5 Rings and 3 MVPs.

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lol at Wade winning MVP in 07

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He had great stats.

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Just this year Lebron won it over Durant with defense being a factor.

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Was it?
27.1/8/6 with 46 wins on team with tons more exposure and second seed vs 28/8/3.5 with 47 wins and second seed

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If Dwight Howard had led the Magic past the Bulls to the 1 seed the past 2 seasons he would have won MVP primarily due to defense.

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Or the whole Best player on Best team reason that Dirk and Rose and many other players won it on. Best player on best team indisputably comes above defense. Especially considering that Rose isn't that great a defender. Three of the last five players to win MVP are below average to beyond terrible defenders.

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But the big picture to me with the list of MVPs+Finals MVPs+10 all-nbas is that it solidifies Dirk as a top 20 player.

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No it does not. Dirk is not top 20 at all. But you can shoe horn him with selective stats into all kinds of places he doesn't fit. You were doing it before he wont a title and you will probably continue until you die. I'm sure you will bore your grandkids with stories about how Dirk was the greatest player ever, but there is some sort of conspiracy against him which is why he isn't thought of as well historically.

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Yes but not as simple as Championsip+MVP + all-nba.

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Same amount of criteria. Championship+MVP+Led League three categories.

Why can't you admit that you are shoehorning the stats to make it say what you want it to say and ignoring things that hurt your argument specifically because they hurt your argument? You are beyond ridiculous.

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 8/1/2012 4:05p).]

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I disliked him years ago, but much like the Russian crowd in Rocky IV, the underdog won me over. Dirk works extremely hard, is a class act and is entertaining to watch. There isn't much to dislike about him, especially since he cut his nasty Scola hair.

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Sounds exactly like the way I feel about Tim Duncan. Cheers.

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Honest question...if he led them to the title, why couldn't he do it before? I mean he's had better seasons than in 2011, so why haven't the mavs won more than one championship if Dirk has been there for all this time?

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Take it to the Lebron James message board.














Oh wait, we're talking about Dirk.

Prepayag in a nutshell:

Critiques Dirk for only having one ring.

Says Karl Malone and John Stockton are better despite winning no rings.

Classic.

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Sounds exactly like the way I feel about Tim Duncan. Cheers.

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Come on. You don't find Duncan entertaining to watch. No lying when you are coming clean.

At least he plays with Manu and Parker.

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Gervin had 9 selections.
He had 7 in the NBA and 4 in the ABA.

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per basketball-reference he has 9. If that's wrong you should file a complaint with them.

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No it does not. Dirk is not top 20 at all. But you can shoe horn him with selective stats into all kinds of places he doesn't fit

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In the old days I did tear up the b-r database looking for obscure stats to prop up Dirks legacy. But I was always shot down with "ROFL Dirk will never be considered great until he wins a title". Now I don't have to look at stats anymore. I can dig up some of my epic Dirk stats posts or I can just go with the simple awards which stand on their own.

Now you're the one coming up with obscure criteria to discredit Dirk. And it's putting you in the odd position of defending big empty stats guys like Karl Malone.


[This message has been edited by Internetfan02 (edited 8/1/2012 4:30p).]

How many guys have been the best player on a championship team?

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per basketball-reference he has 9. If that's wrong you should file a complaint with them.

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My bad. They had a column where they relisted his ABA awards so I counted it twice.

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\In the old days I did tear up the b-r database lookin for obscure stats to prop up Dirks legacy.

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Two days ago = old days, apparently.

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Now you're the one coming up with obscure criteria to discredit Dirk.

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Don't have to go obscure at all. All-Defense isn't any more obscure than all-NBA.

And with my MVP+FinalsMVP+10All-NBA+3All-defense team you get 9 players who are unquestionably in the argument for top 10 best all time. You miss out on the 10th. Pretty great stat. Who is missing besides Magic that deserves to be in the conversation for top 10? With adding defense, you have a set of results that unquestionably represents players that are in the talk for top 10 and none possibly rank outside top 20. You are the only person I have ever seen that ranks Dirk has high as 13th. That is insane.

But keep on with the obscure stats. It's been an entertaining decade or so from you.

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How many guys have been the best player on a championship team?

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28 players have won Finals MVP. But many were not the best player on their team.
Some that come to mind are Tony Parker, Dennis Johnson, Chauncey Billups, Joe Dumars, and Cedric Maxwell.

So what is wrong with
"Dirk is a top 50 NBA player all time and led an underdog Mavs team to a championship without a second consistent scorer in a truly magnificent playoff run. He is one of the best pure shooters of all time and created tremendous matchup problems by being so tall, yet still very agile. He worked incredibly hard, played with a ton of passion and was a very good teammate." as his Legacy?

I think you take something away from his legacy by trying to shoe horn him into places like top 13 when he really doesn't belong there. He has had a great career and has provided a lot of really incredible moments. Why take away from it by pushing it too far?

THIS THREAD NEEDS TO DIE

Dirk is top 15-20. Without a doubt dude.

Top 50 is being severely underrated.

Who are the 14-19 players better than Dirk?

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And with my MVP+FinalsMVP+10All-NBA+3All-defense team you get 9 players who are unquestionably in the argument for top 10 best all time. You miss out on the 10th. Pretty great stat.

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Your list has 11 players while missing out on a top 5 guy and overcompensating for defense. Mine has 13 players with all top 9 plus 4 more in the top 20.

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Who is missing besides Magic that deserves to be in the conversation for top 10?

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West, Oscar, Moses

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You are the only person I have ever seen that ranks Dirk has high as 13th. That is insane.

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On this same page someone linked the greatest basketball columnist and historian of our generation putting Dirk at 12-13. If Simmons puts Dirk above Havlicek you have to take it seriously.