Great discussion here. Lets get this thread to 1000 replies by November.

Prepyag,
I need some research help. Trying to make a list of NBA legends with a Finals MVP, MVP, and 10+ All-NBA awards. Also looking for a list of players with multiple Finals appearances with 0 All-NBA teammates. TIA

[This message has been edited by ArchaeologyAg (edited 7/31/2012 12:39p).]

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Also looking for a list of players with multiple Finals appearances with 0 All-NBA teammates. TIA

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Your point is well taken, but I would assume that Jason Kidd has an all-nba appearance or two, doesn't he?

Yes but he wasn't all-nba when he was on Dirks team (though he came close in 09)

Nash made it twice while teammates with Dirk.

Yes Nash snuck in a couple 3rd team selections but those weren't Finals teams. In fact there were zero common players from Nash's last all-nba Mavs season to the first Finals team

That's fine. But Dirk played with another All-NBA player in their prime.

And don't act like Nash 'snuck in' a selection. Nash averaged 18 points and 8 assists those two years while shooting .470/.430/.900. Then he followed sneaking into All-NBA third team with sneaking into two straight MVPs and three straight 1st teams.

Anything to prop Dirk up. Come up with ridiculous stats that shoe horns Dirk in with few or no one else. Discredit Dirk's teammates, even though throughout all those years, you were touting the Mavs as one of the most talented and deepest teams in the NBA right here on Texags. You are ridiculous.

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In fact there were zero common players from Nash's last all-nba Mavs season to the first Finals team

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Other than Adrian Griffin, who started for both teams at SG.

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 7/31/2012 2:16p).]

Dirk wasn't ready to lead a team to a title. If the same Dirk that went to the finals played w/ the same Nash that won 2 MVP's they would have won more together.

It's not that rad to figure out as Dirk was still a mere 25 years old when Nash left.

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Great discussion here. Lets get this thread to 1000 replies by November.

Prepyag,
I need some research help. Trying to make a list of NBA legends with a Finals MVP, MVP, and 10+ All-NBA awards. Also looking for a list of players with multiple Finals appearances with 0 All-NBA teammates. TIA

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LMAO...like I said before "9th inning doubles in the month of august." Why don't you just man up and call Dirk a legend so we can all officially laugh at you. It'd save so much more time. I mean when I think of the NBA I think Michael Jordan, Jerry West, and Dirk. Who doesn't right?

Of course I forgot Griffin left the team and returned in 06. Great role player.

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That's fine. But Dirk played with another All-NBA player in their prime.

And don't act like Nash 'snuck in' a selection. Nash averaged 18 points and 8 assists those two years while shooting .470/.430/.900. Then he followed sneaking into All-NBA third team with sneaking into two straight MVPs and three straight 1st teams.

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Sounds like you want to start another list called NBA Legends who won 50+ games for 11 straight years with only 2 of those seasons with an All-nba teammate. Thats a different list.

Nash didn't follow up his 3rd all-nba teams with MVP seasons. You forgot 2004 when it was obvious to everyone except Colangelo that he was on a big decline due to age and durability and it would be foolish to give him more than a 3-4 year deal. Only after being shafted by Cuban and joining a high flying team with the owner who helped initiate the new perimeter rules did he rededicate himself to conditioning and ascend to MVP caliber.

[This message has been edited by Internetfan02 (edited 7/31/2012 2:35p).]

I'll leave the obscure list making up to you.

Nash may have had a down year in 2004 for Nash, but most post players would kill to be able to run the PnR with a 15/9 point guard that can hit 40% of his threes. How many guys have gotten that?

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Why don't you just man up and call Dirk a legend so we can all officially laugh at you.

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Dirk is a legend. Is he Jordan, Bird or Magic? No, obviously, but he is one of the best NBA players ever. Give it a rest.

GS, the "but Dirk played with Nash" argument is pretty weak. 2004 Nash played no defense, and added 15/9. That's nothing to go crazy about.

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GS, the "but Dirk played with Nash" argument is pretty weak. 2004 Nash played no defense, and added 15/9. That's nothing to go crazy about.

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Yeah, but Dirk didn't play any defense either and wasn't really a leader then. Dirk wasn't ready and wasn't the same Dirk as 2011 Playoff Dirk.

Duncan never played with a 15/9 point guard. Neither did Shaq. Or Jordan. Or lots of stars.

15/9 is nothing to sneeze at. Especially when you consider that Cuban/Nellie did a pisspoor job of retooling after getting bounced by the Spurs the year before. Added square pegs in round holes of Antoine/Antawn, got lucky with Josh Howard and Marquise Daniels, but nether was ready to be a solid contributor yet and had basically an entire new team outside the big three to deal with. Gave it a year and blew it all up again.

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Dirk is a legend

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First you say he's not Jordan, Bird, or Magic, who are unquestionable 3 of the best NBA players ever, but then say Dirk is one of the best NBA players ever. Confusing to me...

A Maverick legend, YES; A European legend, YES; An NBA legend, NO

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Duncan never played with a 15/9 point guard. Neither did Shaq. Or Jordan. Or lots of stars.

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Duncan just played with an 18/8 PG. Now you're finding obscure stats to make a strange argument. The 2004 Mavs were statistically one of the greatest offensive teams ever. That got them the 5 seed and a quick 1st round exit. Thankfully Nash leaving led to Nellie quitting on the franchise so they could quickly reload and commit to a playoffs winning system.

When it comes to lists, it doesn't get any simpler than MVP+Finals MVP+10 All-NBAs. That includes the greatest individual awards while accounting for longevity and different eras. All NBA Legends with hardware to prove it. No need for obscure stats. Finals MVP didn't start until the late 60s so you can retroactively add a few players.

[This message has been edited by InternetFan02 (edited 7/31/2012 5:39p).]

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Duncan never played with a 15/9 point guard. Neither did Shaq. Or Jordan. Or lots of stars.

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In 2008-2009, Duncan played with a PG that scored 22/7. In the playoffs, 29/7.

Fail.

And no one is comparing Dirk to Shaq or Jordan.

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First you say he's not Jordan, Bird, or Magic, who are unquestionable 3 of the best NBA players ever, but then say Dirk is one of the best NBA players ever. Confusing to me...

A Maverick legend, YES; A European legend, YES; An NBA legend, NO

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I can't believe I'm giving you the time of day, but Dirk is one of the best NBA players ever. Does that mean he's top 10? No, child, that just means he's top 50 or so.

In a league that has 400 players a year, over a 40+ year existence, being even a top 50 all-time player makes you a legend.

Cue semantics argument about legend vs. not legend. That's my definition and I'm sticking to it, because the players we continue to talk about are the ones that are in the top 50 all time, and that's because they are legends.

[This message has been edited by rasher (edited 7/31/2012 6:04p).]

I guess it depends how you define "legend". Dirk is a first ballot Hall of Famer and one of the best PFs ever.

Let's remember, Dirk got injured in the 2003 WCF so let's not act like things may have turned out in the Mavs favor had that not happened.

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I can't believe I'm giving you the time of day, but Dirk is one of the best NBA players ever. Does that mean he's top 10? No, child, that just means he's top 50 or so.

In a league that has 400 players a year, over a 40+ year existence, being even a top 50 all-time player makes you a legend.

Cue semantics argument about legend vs. not legend. That's my definition and I'm sticking to it, because the players we continue to talk about are the ones that are in the top 50 all time, and that's because they are legends.

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No, he's not an NBA legend. Sorry, but he's not. You can say he is to you, which shows your depth of NBA history, but Dirk Nowitski isn't now, nor will be evern be an NBA legend. You mav fans crack me up.

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I guess it depends how you define "legend". Dirk is a first ballot Hall of Famer and one of the best PFs ever.

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Would you consider Bill Bradley, Alex English, or Robert Parrish NBA legends? They were all 1st ballot HOF'ers...even being a first ballot HOF'er doesn't make you a legend.

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Now you're finding obscure stats to make a strange argument.

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I was trying to speak your love language.

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When it comes to lists, it doesn't get any simpler than MVP+Finals MVP+10 All-NBAs.

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But wouldn't you get an even better same of the best all around players of all time if you added in All-Defense?
MVP+Finals MVP+10 All-NBA+3 All-D

Jordan
Hakeem
Duncan
Kobe
Garnett
Kareem
Shaq
Bird
Russell* (They started All-Defense his final year in the NBA, and he was first team, he would have unquestionably made it every single year of his career - retroactively add him, since he would have made it, as you stated with Finals MVP)
Wilt* [See Russell]

Other than the fact that Dirk falls off the list, what is a good reason to leave off All-Defense when looking for a stat that captures the best ever? Defense is half the game.

Add in All-Defense, and who isn't in the conversation for Top 10 all time? Garnett?

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In 2008-2009, Duncan played with a PG that scored 22/7.

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Duncan and Dirk have both played with better scorers than Nash's 15ppg in 04 many times. But Parker didn't quite make it to 9 assists per game, did he? 25% short is a long way.

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I can't believe I'm giving you the time of day, but Dirk is one of the best NBA players ever. Does that mean he's top 10? No, child, that just means he's top 50 or so.

In a league that has 400 players a year, over a 40+ year existence, being even a top 50 all-time player makes you a legend.

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I've seen many on here argue that Dirk is top 15 all-time.

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Cue semantics argument about legend vs. not legend.

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Eh, it is a stupid argument. Dirk will always mean a lot to the Dallas fans. And he should. He is a great player.

Dirk did win a finals against what is likely to go down as one of the great all time teams with what should go down as one of the weaker supporting casts ever. That counts for something.
And don't give me the Jason Kidd hall of fame garbage. He was well out of his prime and terry was hardly Scottie pippen.

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Other than the fact that Dirk falls off the list, what is a good reason to leave off All-Defense when looking for a stat that captures the best ever? Defense is half the game.

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Why not look at DPOY instead? Because it leaves off Duncan?

MVP >> DPOY/All-defense. More all-encompassing. You can win MVP based off being a dominant defender, and poor defense will hurt your case for MVP. Dirk would not have won MVP if he was a complete defensive liability. His team was a top 5 defense that season and had 0 star defenders supporting him. Yeah I know Nash won but his team didn't attempt to care about defense so you can't say it was an issue when it's built into the SSOL system.

And the all-defense voting is generally regarded as heavily biased towards reputation - moreso than any other awards.

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Add in All-Defense, and who isn't in the conversation for Top 10 all time? Garnett?

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No Finals MVP for Garnett. Couldn't win a title without playing 2nd banana to Pierce in the Finals.

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I've seen many on here argue that Dirk is top 15 all-time.

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Its reasonable to put him in the 13-20 range with the chance to move up or down. Not just Mavs fan bias. Saying Dirk isn't an NBA Legend at this point is a complete troll that doesn't deserve a response.

[This message has been edited by Internetfan02 (edited 7/31/2012 8:38p).]

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Why not look at DPOY instead? Because it leaves off Duncan?

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It leaves off more than Duncan.

You go from
Jordan
Hakeem
Duncan
Kobe
Kareem
Shaq
Bird
Russell
Wilt

to

Russell*
Jordan
Hakeem

Also, the DPOY didn't start until the mid80s.

So when compiling a list of all-time greats, you lose a few decades with that qualification. And guys like Kareem, Duncan, Shaq, Kobe, Bird and Wilt are all unquestionably in the conversation for top 10 all time.

Is a stricter qualification necessary? That list of 9 is pretty out ****ing standing. The most noticeable player left off is Magic, who was not a great defender, but did retire as the career steals leader.

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Dirk would not have won MVP if he was a complete defensive liability.

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Steve Nash won two MVPs. Argument invalid. Nash is a terrible defender no matter what system. SSOL is irrelevant. Marion and Raja Bell were still standout defenders in SSOL. Bell made both first and second team All-Defensive while on SSOL Suns.

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No Finals MVP for Garnett. Couldn't win a title without playing 2nd banana to Pierce in the Finals.

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My bad. So my list is even more valid. It has 9 players and all are easily considered in the argument (if not an absolute lock) of top 10 player of all time.

What is the argument for not including three all-defense selections?

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Saying Dirk isn't an NBA Legend at this point is a complete troll that doesn't deserve a response.

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Legend has no definition in this sense, so it is an asinine argument on the parts of everyone who engages, especially when it is with an obvious troll.

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 7/31/2012 9:10p).]

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Is a stricter qualification necessary? That list of 9 is pretty out ****ing standing. The most noticeable player left off is Magic, who was not a great defender, but did retire as the career steals leader.

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You should also add Cousy and Pettit to your list as probable all-defense players with MVPs/retroactive Finals MVPs. So your top 11 list removes a player (Magic) generally considered top 5 all-time.

Bottom line is the MVP award already factors in defense and is more all-encompassing. Keep it simple.

If you remove the longevity components then you add in Moses (8 all-NBAs, 2 all-defense), Unseld(1 all-NBAs, 0 all-defense) Walton (2all-NBAs, 2 all-defense), and Willis Reed (5 all-NBAs, 1 all-defense)

[This message has been edited by Internetfan02 (edited 7/31/2012 9:47p).]

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Bottom line is the MVP award already factors in defense and is more all-encompassing.

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Yeah, but it doesn't. There are no guidelines. Some vote for best player on best team. Some vote for best stats. There isn't a lot of rhyme or reason, but Nash and Dirk winning it prove that defense isn't a major consideration.

But I understand why you would want to keep it in there.

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If you remove the longevity components then you add in Moses (8 all-NBAs, 2 all-defense), Unseld(1 all-NBAs, 0 all-defense) Walton (2all-NBAs, 2 all-defense), and Willis Reed (5 all-NBAs, 1 all-defense)

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I'm not eager to add any of them to the conversation of best ever. Walton didn't play long enough. Moses is more deserving than Dirk to be in the conversation, though.

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Yeah, but it doesn't. There are no guidelines. Some vote for best player on best team. Some vote for best stats. There isn't a lot of rhyme or reason, but Nash and Dirk winning it prove that defense isn't a major consideration.

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And Bill Russell winning proves that offense isn't a major consideration.

The MVP award and All-NBA teams are the simplest most all-encompassing ways of comparing players across eras in all facets of the game. Equating them to the all-defensive team is just a sign of bias.

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And Bill Russell winning proves that offense isn't a major consideration.

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Different eras with different voters

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The MVP award and All-NBA teams are the simplest most all-encompassing ways of comparing players across eras in all facets of the game. Equating them to the all-defensive team is just a sign of bias.

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Refusing to add in defense so your boy isn't excluded is also an example of bias. My list of 9 players is a much better representation of the all-time NBA greats.

How about:
MVP, Finals MVP, Championship, 5+ All-NBA FIrst Teams

Kareem
Kobe
Jordan
Magic
Duncan
Bird
Magic
Pettit * (Finals MVP didn't exist in 58)
Russell* (Finals MVP named after him, better than winning it)
Wilt
Shaq
Hakeem
LeBron

But you would never agree to any list of the all-time greats that didn't include your boy and would make any argument to include him. So that won't work. We have to work under YOUR bias, not actually try to find a way to define it and answer the question of who is really the best all time.

[This message has been edited by Guitarsoup (edited 8/1/2012 12:02a).]

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My list of 9 players is a much better representation of the all-time NBA greats.

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Your list has 11 players, and you left out one of the top 5 all-time greats while over-emphasizing defense

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How about:
MVP, Finals MVP, Championship, 5+ All-NBA FIrst Teams

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5 years obviously doesn't show enough longevity - that's about the length of the prime of a career. Why wouldn't you just say 10 years of All-NBA 1st team? Because your boy Duncan would be excluded.

My list has the simplest criteria without bias - basic hardware plus a common sense longevity factor.

Dammit!! If only there was some number that was more than 5 but less than 10!!

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Duncan and Dirk have both played with better scorers than Nash's 15ppg in 04 many times. But Parker didn't quite make it to 9 assists per game, did he? 25% short is a long way.

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This is a weird backtrack. What position is "scorer" again? Because I thought we were talking about whether or not Duncan et al played with a point guard that had equal or better numbers. 22-28/7 > 15/9 any day of the week, and I do believe TP plays the point.

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No, he's not an NBA legend. Sorry, but he's not. You can say he is to you, which shows your depth of NBA history, but Dirk Nowitski isn't now, nor will be evern be an NBA legend. You mav fans crack me up.

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Well then that's settled!

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My list has the simplest criteria without bias

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If you think that, you are insane. You specifically chose it because Dirk fit into it and you specifically exclude defense because Dirk sucks at it while pretty much all of the all-time greats don't. You wanted to prove a point, so you chose the criteria that would fit it. The very definition of bias.