I just read a Philly blog from this year using stats to show how Elton Brand should have been a DPOY candidate. Getting over the 5 stages of grief.

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IF, where I see you going wrong about thinking the Mavs core is better than the Nets core is you aren't looking at age.

Dirk is an old man now. He's not a good core member of a team. It always takes a year or 2 for a new team to gel and Dirk is going to be 36 at that point. Dirk was great, but he's no longer a player that young guys want to go play with thinking he can lead a team to a Championship.

That would be like the Spurs trying to sell a younger superstar on coming to play with Duncan. He's too old now.

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Dirk is still all-nba caliber and still puts up his usual dominant playoff numbers. Give him a few years before he hits Duncan status. And Joe Johnson is 31 but has always relied on athleticism. That's not good - he's going to hit the Finley Wall very soon.

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They [Spurs] haven't tried to land a marquee free agent since 2003.
That's absolute bull****. They have gone after a number of other players, but Kidd was their best bet. They failed and it was probably better for them that they did considering how Tony Parker turned out.

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If you want to compare apples to apples then Kidd 2003 is the only close comparison to what the Mavs are doing. Recruiting a max level superstar with cap space is totally different from recruiting with the MLE. The superstar is joining the core of the franchise, while the MLE player knows he's always expendable. And there's different levels of recruiting max level guys. Orlando was the only dumb team to offer Rashard Lewis that ridiculous contract - easy choice/easy pitch. Deron already knew he was worth the max to every team without a star PG.

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Can he play the 5 in a zone?
He could before he blew out his legs. He was a pretty good shot blocker once upon a time.

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Freakishly long wingspan... written off mainly because of his bad contract... perfect fit at the backup 4/5...low risk signing... We're back in business

Tastes good!

Deron speaks on why he made his decision.

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I had the meetings and it kind of changed my mind because once I got out of the meeting with Dallas and saw the way they way were going and the team they were putting out there and I saw that we just made a trade for Joe Johnson and I felt like that team for a longer time would be the better team. Joe got me over the hump. I've never played with anybody like him, a guy on the wing that can get his own shot and also get me involved and is a great defender. We could one of the top backcourts in the NBA for sure.

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He's delusional. Joe Johnson is not going to be a huge difference maker for them. Best case scenario they are 1st round in the Eastern Conference playoffs and done now.

I think they are better than everyone in the East except Miami and Chicago with a healthy Derrick Rose.

^ I mean I certainly could be wrong.

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I think they are better than everyone in the East except Miami and Chicago with a healthy Derrick Rose.

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I agree they're behind Miami and Chicago [with Rose], but I don't think they're definitively the 3rd best team. I think after MIA/CHI you have a cluster**** of teams that are all pretty similar at this point [BKN, NYK, BOS, Indy if they bring back Hibbert].

I'm also hesitant to say that the additions of Joe Johnson, healthy Lopez, and full season of Wallace will get the Nets an extra 25 wins. That seems like a lot to ask from those players.

Joe Johnson vs Michael Finley stats through age 30. Shockingly similar though Finley was much better in the playoffs.
http://bkref.com/tiny/chJ2p

Check what happened to Finley after he turned 30 in the 2004 season. Joe Johnson is 31.
http://m.bkref.com/m?p=XXplayersXXfXXfinlemi01.html

Great decision. Keep talking. I remember all those players lining up to play with Finley after 2005.

It's interesting to hear that was the ultimate tipping point. Certainly is a kick in the nards to hear he was leaning towards Dallas and both he and Kidd figured they'd be in Dallas until that trade. The fact that the Mavs couldn't make any moves until Deron signed worked against us there. CBA working as intended.

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I think after MIA/CHI you have a cluster**** of teams that are all pretty similar at this point [BKN, NYK, BOS, Indy if they bring back Hibbert].

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I agree with this. A team like the Knick has a lot of nice individual pieces but that didn't result in much. I wonder if the Nets will be the same way for a year or two before they figure it out.

I'd probably pay Joe Johnson $20mil/season for the next 4 seasons in order to get Deron for the next 5. Call it the price of doing business.

Johnson isn't great, but he's serviceable and won't kill you -- shoots 45% and doesn't turn it over much. He's probably got 2 solid-to-decent years left, then you suffer through one year of him being a waste of space, then the last year you have a huge expiring contract to trade. Might also be worth mentioning that the last time Johnson played with a PG worth a **** was when he was still in Phoenix [apologies to Mike Bibby, Royal Ivey, and Acie Law, among others], and his last season in Phoenix he shot almost 50% on 3s.

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It's interesting to hear that was the ultimate tipping point.

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I really doubt that Brooklyn would have made the trade for someone as expensive as Joe Johnson without knowing that Deron Williams wanted to play with him. I'm positive that Deron was involved in that, just like Dallas has probably given Dirk a heads up every time they make a major move.

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I agree with this. A team like the Knick has a lot of nice individual pieces but that didn't result in much. I wonder if the Nets will be the same way for a year or two before they figure it out.

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It seems like the Nets players are built to work together better than the Knicks. The Knicks got a center than can play with anyone because he doesn't really have an offensive game and just rebounds and gets tips/oops. But they got Melo - a SF that creates for himself in the midrange. Then they got a PF that is great running the pick and roll, but other than that, just likes the midrange. He isn't that great back to the basket, and he wants the ball in the same spot as Melo.

When your two best players want to get the ball in the same spot, that is a problem. When you have a coach that wants to play run and gun and your star wants to play isolation, that is a problem. When you switch coaches mid season because the coach wants to run and gun and the star wants to play ISO, that is a problem. When you have a run and gun coach, but no point guard, that is a really big problem. Knicks got talent together, but not that well. As the 2004 Mavs learned, it is about a lot more than just having talent, you need the right pieces to fit together. I don't think the Knicks did a good job of fitting the right pieces together.

But a great point guard that can run the half court offense and play defense is a pretty good fit with Avery Johnson coaching. Give him a off guard that can create his own shot, play backup point and fire threes is a pretty good fit. A double-double machine at PF that doesn't need the ball works well with them. A poor man's mid-00s Shawn Marion at SF that can rebound bigger than he is, can shoot and play defense works well. Then a no-rebound center that can score works well, especially since your point guard, PF, SF and SG are all better than average at rebounding.

That team makes a lot more sense together than a team like the Knicks that got two players that wanted to play together, even though their styles don't really work together.

I would bet good money that the Nets never win anything.

define "good money", "never", and "anything"

It's sad that Mavs fans bag on Joe Johnson, but he'd easily be the 2nd best Maverick right now. The Mavs sat on their hands and lost D-Williams, pure and simple. Whether you agree or not, Williams felt Johnson was the tipping point and a good player to have in his back court. had Cuban actually been at the meeting maybe he'd have known that.

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define "good money", "never", and "anything"

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They'll be a good team but one that won't make it to the Finals unless Miami or Chicago has injury issues. Much like the Mavs from '01-'05. If D-Will wanted a ring, he made a mistake.

Great comparison to Joe Johnson and Michael Finley btw. Two players that rely on their great athletic ability, so father time will creep up on them faster than the pure shooter. J-Kidd would not have lasted this longer had he not mastered his 3 point shot (which is still pretty amazing if you remember how he shot his first few years).

Mavs need to get L Williams (or maybe A Brooks) and that C that used to play for the Clippers (Caman?), and resign West for the 2. Dirk isn't going anywhere. At least put together a team that can play 500-ball and maybe sneak into the playoffs.

Ok, first you say this...

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They'll be a good team but one that won't make it to the Finals unless Miami or Chicago has injury issues. Much like the Mavs from '01-'05. If D-Will wanted a ring, he made a mistake.

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...but then say this...

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At least put together a team that can play 500-ball and maybe sneak into the playoffs.

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So what would've been the right decision? If he wanted a ring you say staying w/ the Nets was "a mistake", but then say that the mavs need to put together a team to "maybe sneak into the playoffs." Sounds a bit contradictory. D-Williams wouldn't have made the Finals with Dallas w/ a aging Dirk, no back court running mate, and no low post player. He has a much better shot in Brooklyn.

So one year of barely making the playoffs equals not getting in a ring in future years with Dallas?

Read between the lines.

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So one year of barely making the playoffs equals not getting in a ring in future years with Dallas?

Read between the lines

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Which lines are you referring to? because the only lines I see D-Williams saw as well; aging Dirk w/ an aging roster, no trade assets to get Dwight Howard, Nets aggressively upgrading their roster moving into a new stadium, an absentee owner at the biggest free agent recruitment in team history...

...I'm unclear what lines I'm suppose to read between...

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The Mavs sat on their hands and lost D-Williams, pure and simple.

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Sat on their hands? You mean by dismantling a team and acquiring an army of exceptions for the explicit purpose of signing Williams?

The problem is the Williams had to take it on faith that Dallas was going to improve the team because for Dallas, they had to sign Williams before they made any moves. The Nets got to make their moves before signing Williams. Oh, and they were able to offer him a 9 figure contract.

Dallas screwed up by thinking Williams wasn't going to chase the cash, but not by "sitting on their hands."

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Sat on their hands? You mean by dismantling a team and acquiring an army of exceptions for the explicit purpose of signing Williams?

The problem is the Williams had to take it on faith that Dallas was going to improve the team because for Dallas, they had to sign Williams before they made any moves. The Nets got to make their moves before signing Williams. Oh, and they were able to offer him a 9 figure contract.

Dallas screwed up by thinking Williams wasn't going to chase the cash, but not by "sitting on their hands."

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No, Dallas sat on their hands. Why was it the the Nets didn't sit any wait on Williams? Why were they proactive? In fact, Williams said as much in his ESPN interview. You can try and spin it all you want regarding money, but Williams said that he was leaning more towards Dallas, but he didn't like the directino they were going, or he like the Nets direction better...that's because Dallas' only moves this off-season so far have been to lose players, not bring any in.

The previous post starts with an idiot who hates Dallas with unhealthy obsession and ends with moronic anti-reasoning that's completely devoid of any concept of how the salary cap or collective bargaining agreement works.

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The previous post starts with an idiot who hates Dallas with unhealthy obsession and ends with moronic anti-reasoning that's completely devoid of any concept of how the salary cap or collective bargaining agreement works.

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Please inform me on how it all works since that's apparently what you do for a living. Because what I saw was Dallas sitting around waiting to sign Deron Williams some how thinking that he wouldn't look at a depleted roster with only a 34 year old, aging superstar, and not much else to play with; meanwhile, Brooklyn re-signs Wallace and trades for Joe Johnson...one team did something, the other didn't...but please inform me since you know all of the intimate intricacies of the NBA CBA why Dallas literally did nothing but watch their players leave and think that would entice Williams to sign with them...don't worry, I'll wait.

[This message has been edited by prepyag03 (edited 7/9/2012 11:59a).]

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please inform me since you know all of the intimate intricacies of the NBA CBA why Dallas literally did nothing but watch their players leave and think that would entice Williams to sign with them...don't worry, I'll wait.

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Dallas could barely afford to pick up Deron Williams. If they added salary, they would not have been able to sign him outright, and then they lose leverage in trying to sign him. If Dallas can't offer a max contract, then Brooklyn can tell Deron "You can sign with Dallas, but we won't trade you there unless we get Dirk back" or you could take their sub-max offer. If Dallas can outright sign Deron, then Dallas can sign him or offer a couple picks to NJ and trade him for a trade exception. Because of Dirk's giant contract and the 20+mm owed to Marion, Haywood, Roddy, Vince and Jones, Dallas could only make moves that lost them salary and keep their flexibility to be able to sign Deron Williams outright.

Dallas couldn't make moves because no one wants Haywood's contract or Marion's contract. And Dirk isn't going anywhere unless he forces his way out.

Dallas had to maintain enough room under the cap to sign Williams as a free agent. Brooklyn did not.

Yes, it's really that simple.

Wait, wait, so let me get this straight...the whole reason that Dallas didn't sign Chandler, Barrea, and Stephenson last seasonwas to create cap space to sign Williams, but if they had been able to sign williams, they'd have no money to sign anyone else? Or did you leave anything out of your post?

And that's what you Mavs fans call "financial flexibility" or being able to "money whip" a free agent to sign with Dallas?

The way Cuban had lined up trade exceptions and the amnesty on either Marion or Haywood has been discussed in this thread around 50 times.

the team obviously is crap for 2012-2013. cuban and donnie have always said the teams with cap room will be better positioned to win as the CBA starts to take effect, so maybe the logic of this strategy will play out in 2013. dosent excuse the fact that they will put out a crap team two years in a row, but cuban didnt exactly become a billionaire by luck. the guy has always hedged all his bets, there has to be a hedge here with deron.

we'll see in 2013 and beyond. sucks as a mavs fan that we will be in the lottery next year, but for perspective, in 2008,, two years removed from the championship, miami won 15 games i think. mavs are following the same pattern as the 2006 heat.

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Sat on their hands? You mean by dismantling a team and acquiring an army of exceptions for the explicit purpose of signing Williams?

The problem is the Williams had to take it on faith that Dallas was going to improve the team because for Dallas, they had to sign Williams before they made any moves. The Nets got to make their moves before signing Williams. Oh, and they were able to offer him a 9 figure contract.

Dallas screwed up by thinking Williams wasn't going to chase the cash, but not by "sitting on their hands."

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Wait, wait, so let me get this straight...the whole reason that Dallas didn't sign Chandler, Barrea, and Stephenson last seasonwas to create cap space to sign Williams

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Seriously? Do you follow basketball? Dwight Howard and Chris Paul were believed to be free agents going into this off-season as well. When they opted out, that left only DWill as the only All Star free agent target for the Mavs.

Yes, we all know now that Cuban and Donnie's strategy turned out to be a disaster. Now can you kindly take your nanny nanny boo boo crap some place else?

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Seriously? Do you follow basketball? Dwight Howard and Chris Paul were believed to be free agents going into this off-season as well. When they opted out, that left only DWill as the only All Star free agent target for the Mavs.

Yes, we all know now that Cuban and Donnie's strategy turned out to be a disaster. Now can you kindly take your nanny nanny boo boo crap some place else?

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Firs tof all, it's comical how a week ago you were all about calling me an idiot and what not making personal attacks when you thought the mavs would get Williams...fast forward to now and you're butthurt about it all.

You should direct your aggression towards the mavs organization not me.

And second, I understand the free agent list for this summer was intense, but it was said that the Mavs were going after both Howard and Williams/Paul...How would that have been possible under your scenario where they couldn't even upgrade their roster because they couldn't have enough money for just one max contract let alone 2? Seems like the mavs whole "super team" attempt was ill-fated from jumpsreet.

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How would that have been possible under your scenario where they couldn't even upgrade their roster because they couldn't have enough money for just one max contract let alone 2?

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They could have fit both. Signed one, amnesty Haywood, trade for the other using cap space+filler contracts. But one team would most likely have had to take Marion and his 2y/17mm, which would have been unlikely.

Then fill the rest with min contracts and run with Dirk+Dwight+Deron+scrubs.

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How would that have been possible under your scenario where they couldn't even upgrade their roster because they couldn't have enough money for just one max contract let alone 2? Seems like the mavs whole "super team" attempt was ill-fated from jumpsreet.

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It was possible purely from a salary cap standpoint. Now, how realistic it was is a completely different issue.

also, how is the Deron/Dwight/Mavs thing still an ongoing debate on this thread?

Apparently the Mavs are talking to Ramon Sessions. According to Simplebay that should make us contenders for the Championship again. :P