I really like the way Joseph looks. Easily the most complete PG we have outside of Tony. He is also by far the best defender out of the bunch. Hope he continues to get minutes to prove himself.
2012-13 San Antonio Spurs thread
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Last: 12 yr ago by Enzo The Baker
Joseph still needs a lot of work. He took a lot of really dumb chances on defense last night that freed up his man for wide open shots. He has come a long, long, long way on offense since last year though. At this point, de Colo is a better position defender and is capable of better passes, but in about 4-5 games when Joseph catches up to the speed of the Spurs offense he will fit into the offense better. It took him a while last night to get into the flow. de Colo needs the ball in his hands, while Joseph is more of a cog in the machine.
Right now, I'd rather have de Colo or Mills at pg, but Joseph is ahead of Neal and could pass up the other two within a few games if he gets it together on defense.
Right now, I'd rather have de Colo or Mills at pg, but Joseph is ahead of Neal and could pass up the other two within a few games if he gets it together on defense.
quote:
At this point, de Colo is a better position defender and is capable of better passes
No way. Not even close. Joseph is the best defender out of the 4 "pgs" and it's really not close. He took some gambles last night but he plays great man to man defense, reads the offense really well and plays the passing lanes as good as anyone not named Kawhi. Offensively he is better than De Colo already. While it's only the d-league he shot 48% from 3 down there. The line is the same distance in the NBA.
Mills is a SG who doesn't need to be playing point at all. Neal is definitely a SG who should never have the ball in his hands. De Colo is a great passer and runs the offense well but CoJo is the better option and player IMO.
Jose Calderon was wide open the first quarter. I'm not arguing that de Colo is a defensive great, but at least he stays near his man. Joseph was running halfway across the court for no good reason. His on-ball defense is light years better than it was last season, but the problem was him leaving his man for nonsensical double teams.
There is no way you can make those sort of statements about a guy who has played a whole 1 game of "real" minutes (18 minutes, actually), is averaging 3 ppg, and has a career total 13 steals. He fouled out in 11 minutes the last game.
Mills is a SG who occasionally plays point, but Joseph still looked pretty rocky for stretches last night. Ginobili is actually the second best PG right now, followed by Mills/de Colo/Joseph.
[This message has been edited by Ulrich (edited 3/4/2013 2:24p).]
quote:
He took some gambles last night but he plays great man to man defense, reads the offense really well and plays the passing lanes as good as anyone not named Kawhi. Offensively he is better than De Colo already. While it's only the d-league he shot 48% from 3 down there. The line is the same distance in the NBA.
There is no way you can make those sort of statements about a guy who has played a whole 1 game of "real" minutes (18 minutes, actually), is averaging 3 ppg, and has a career total 13 steals. He fouled out in 11 minutes the last game.
Mills is a SG who occasionally plays point, but Joseph still looked pretty rocky for stretches last night. Ginobili is actually the second best PG right now, followed by Mills/de Colo/Joseph.
[This message has been edited by Ulrich (edited 3/4/2013 2:24p).]
We can agree to disagree but I'm not sure what you were watching last night if you can't see how much of a better and capable defender CoJo is compared to Mills and De Colo. He has great instincts mixed with good size and athleticism. De Colo has been better defensively then I would have thought but he is nowhere near the defender CoJo is. Not even in the same ballpark.
Defense has always been CoJo's strength. Offensively he has gotten better and better and runs the team well. He's also is a capable ball handler and shows good court vision. His jumpshot has gotten so much better and if he can consistently knock that down it's a no-brainer IMO that he should exclusively have the backup PG position.
Defense has always been CoJo's strength. Offensively he has gotten better and better and runs the team well. He's also is a capable ball handler and shows good court vision. His jumpshot has gotten so much better and if he can consistently knock that down it's a no-brainer IMO that he should exclusively have the backup PG position.
I get that the sample size is small but he's been in the system long enough and he already looks extremely comfortable out there. I understand that he needs to prove it more at the NBA level but I thought last night was a great first step.
I very much agree that last night was a great first step, but he has some steps to go.
Defense has not "always" been his strength, last year he was an automatic bucket for whoever he was trying to cover. He's gotten a lot better since then and shows potential to improve even more, but he was getting erased on picks, leaving his man (a known three point shooter) to chase hopeless steals, and getting drawn too far away when he was on legitimate help. His instincts were the problem; he looked like he's been playing against scrubs that he could out-talent. He didn't get completely exposed because it was Calderon and the Pistons, who aren't exactly contenders.
Once he is fully trained in the Spurs defensive system, he'll stop leaving his man alone and at that point he'll be a better defender than de Colo. He still has a long way to go to catch up to de Colo on court vision and passing skill, but he is more trusting of the Spurs' offense and makes the quick relay pass better. It remains to be seen whether he can handle the ball and keep his head against a quality defensive team.
[This message has been edited by Ulrich (edited 3/4/2013 2:46p).]
Defense has not "always" been his strength, last year he was an automatic bucket for whoever he was trying to cover. He's gotten a lot better since then and shows potential to improve even more, but he was getting erased on picks, leaving his man (a known three point shooter) to chase hopeless steals, and getting drawn too far away when he was on legitimate help. His instincts were the problem; he looked like he's been playing against scrubs that he could out-talent. He didn't get completely exposed because it was Calderon and the Pistons, who aren't exactly contenders.
Once he is fully trained in the Spurs defensive system, he'll stop leaving his man alone and at that point he'll be a better defender than de Colo. He still has a long way to go to catch up to de Colo on court vision and passing skill, but he is more trusting of the Spurs' offense and makes the quick relay pass better. It remains to be seen whether he can handle the ball and keep his head against a quality defensive team.
[This message has been edited by Ulrich (edited 3/4/2013 2:46p).]
quote:
Defense has not "always" been his strength
This is THE reason the Spurs drafted him.
Nonetheless, he was a pitiful defender as a rookie.
quote:
It remains to be seen whether he can handle the ball and keep his head against a quality defensive team.
It's a tough spot to be in when the playoffs start because like you said Manu takes over most of the ball handling duties with the second unit. I like CoJo's ability to be able to successfully guard both the 1 and 2 guard next to Ginobili though. I wouldn't be surprised to see Pop go back to Neal here but gosh he is such a horrible defender and his shot is just not what it used to be. It's hard to cut him completely out because he has proven himself to be a valuable player when it matters to some degree. I do think a lot depends on how Joseph is able to shoot the ball and his release looks a lot better than it used to be. This is Nando's problem as well.
[This message has been edited by Sher Thing (edited 3/4/2013 3:11p).]
Tony says he will be back in 3-4 weeks. Just stretched ligaments, no tears but a really bad bruise.
Said he hopes to be back with 10-12 games left in the regular season and is confident he will be 100% by the playoffs.
Said he hopes to be back with 10-12 games left in the regular season and is confident he will be 100% by the playoffs.
quote:
Nonetheless, he was a pitiful defender as a rookie.
I wouldn't really say that. I mean, the kid just jumped into the NBA game after one year of college with sporadic (if any) playing time. I don't remember him being a pitiful defender. I just remember how bad/raw he was offensively.
quote:
Said he hopes to be back with 10-12 games left in the regular season and is confident he will be 100% by the playoffs.
Hopefully this is enough time to get into a groove. It took him about that long, if not longer to actually start playing well this year. But I think he can do it.
I wish it wasn't so severe but this is actually a good thing for Manu. Just looking at him these last 2 games shows that Manu really needs this to get back to playing at the level he was last year. It's also a good thing for CoJo and Kawhi to get more involved. Wish Tony would only miss a couple weeks but hopefully he will be back and the ankle won't be a lingering problem for him.
I don't think De Colo is ready for playoff intensity basketball. His release is too slow, he doesn't generate that much separation, and he doesn't seem to beat anyone off the dribble. If Manu can keep playing like he has the last couple games, he should be the second PG. He's not what he used to be, but he still knows how to set up the offense, make brilliant passes, get his own shot, and run a fast break.
Tony/Manu
Green/Manu
Leonard/Jack
Timmy/Diaw
Splitter/Diaw
Limited/blowout minutes for Neal/Mills/Blair/Joseph/De Colo/Bonner/Baynes.
Tony/Manu
Green/Manu
Leonard/Jack
Timmy/Diaw
Splitter/Diaw
Limited/blowout minutes for Neal/Mills/Blair/Joseph/De Colo/Bonner/Baynes.
I agree. The smaller line-up the better. That is, unless, we find it hard to generate offense. Then we might not have a choice to play Neal.
Pop is going to play another guard a solid 10 or so minutes per game in the playoffs. Whether that be Neal, De Colo, Mills or Joseph is yet to be known but he isn't going to cut the rotation down to just 8.
Obviously if we are talking about a game 7 then yeah what you pointed out is definitely what the Spurs are going to trot out. But you can't go from playing guys 27 mpg in the reg season and then all of a sudden bump them up to 40 and expect them to be as efficient and effective. They aren't conditioned for it. One of the bad things about too much depth in the regular season.
[This message has been edited by Sher Thing (edited 3/4/2013 5:27p).]
[This message has been edited by Sher Thing (edited 3/4/2013 5:27p).]
48 minute game * 5 men on the court = 240 minutes
240 minutes / 8 man roster = 30 minutes per game average
That's without figuring in a few minutes here and there for guys outside the 8 man lineup.
240 minutes / 8 man roster = 30 minutes per game average
That's without figuring in a few minutes here and there for guys outside the 8 man lineup.
Last season the Spurs has 10 players average 13 mpg in the playoffs. Pop uses his depth.
When pushed came to shove he shortened the rotation and the Spurs still lost 4 straight.
When pushed came to shove he shortened the rotation and the Spurs still lost 4 straight.
Last season the Spurs had a lot of comfortable wins in which to rest their players. When the games were in question, he used a shorter lineup. I'm not saying Mills or Joseph will literally never see the floor, just that the "real" lineup is unlikely to include them.
I didn't say Mills or Joseph will see the floor all the time.
I said one of Mills, Joseph, De Colo or Neal will get consistent minutes every game in the playoffs. Pop isn't going with a 3 man guard rotation in the playoffs.
Yes, I know when it comes down to it Tony, Manu and Green will get the minutes at the G position when it counts the most but one of those other guys is going to have to step up and play well for the Spurs if they want to win the championship.
Gary Neal averaged 17 Minutes Per game in the series against the Thunder. He was the 4th guard in the rotation.........
[This message has been edited by Sher Thing (edited 3/5/2013 11:55a).]
I said one of Mills, Joseph, De Colo or Neal will get consistent minutes every game in the playoffs. Pop isn't going with a 3 man guard rotation in the playoffs.
Yes, I know when it comes down to it Tony, Manu and Green will get the minutes at the G position when it counts the most but one of those other guys is going to have to step up and play well for the Spurs if they want to win the championship.
Gary Neal averaged 17 Minutes Per game in the series against the Thunder. He was the 4th guard in the rotation.........
[This message has been edited by Sher Thing (edited 3/5/2013 11:55a).]
Spurs Bulls ESPN at 8.
Everyone but Tony Parker is available for the Spurs.
Everyone but Tony Parker is available for the Spurs.
Man Duncan is moving really well tonight. 4 blocks in 6 minutes.
Gosh Bonner sucks
Sooo many damn turnovers.
Very entertaining game. Both teams playing really hard. I knew Chicago wants this after that embarrassment we gave them without the big 3.
Love Leonard and still loving what Joseph is bringing out there.
Love Leonard and still loving what Joseph is bringing out there.
Belinelli is killing us.
This is really a great game. Win or lose I love the way Manu and Tim look physically tonight.
Only 1 turnover in the 3rd quarter so glad they cleaned it up a bit.
Only 1 turnover in the 3rd quarter so glad they cleaned it up a bit.
Best game of the year by far for Patty.
Manu looked good as well. Good to know he can still lift us.
Yeah. If Manu can get back to that level and then you add a healthy and rested Parker and this team is going to be fun to watch.
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Joseph was a lot more disciplined on defense tonight, and while he didn't have much impact on offense, was reliable against the Bulls. Another step forward, imo.
Does Duncan dislike Joakim Noah? Body language early and words late had me wondering this.
Duncan had the paint on lockdown. Single biggest reason why the Spurs won.
GINOBLEEE looked really good last night. This is huge.
It looks like Mills is trying out for the role of "primary shooter while the big 3 rest". aka, Neal's spot.
Bonner, as usual, looked like hot garbage against a defense with a pulse. He tries hard, but he needs too much space to get a shot off.
Splitter has started finishing on some pretty tough shots. That's good, because he won't get many wide open layups against the Thunder in the playoffs. The attempted dunk was pretty embarrassing though.
Does Duncan dislike Joakim Noah? Body language early and words late had me wondering this.
Duncan had the paint on lockdown. Single biggest reason why the Spurs won.
GINOBLEEE looked really good last night. This is huge.
It looks like Mills is trying out for the role of "primary shooter while the big 3 rest". aka, Neal's spot.
Bonner, as usual, looked like hot garbage against a defense with a pulse. He tries hard, but he needs too much space to get a shot off.
Splitter has started finishing on some pretty tough shots. That's good, because he won't get many wide open layups against the Thunder in the playoffs. The attempted dunk was pretty embarrassing though.
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