Is John walker going to take the serum later?
**The Falcon and the Winter Soldier Discussion Thread**
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Last: 4 yr ago by PatAg
Finally placed him... John walker is "Zuke" from 21 Jump Street!!
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?q=50&fit=crop&w=740&h=370TCTTS said:
This show is dope.
And unlike anything we've seen in the MCU so far, in that it feels like they're starting to push the envelope in terms of sociopolitical issues, but instead of in an annoying way, for whatever reason, through the lens of the MCU, it feels fresh and exciting here. I know race being "injected" into stuff like this rubs some people here the wrong way, but this is not only a story straight out of the comics (Isaiah Bradley and all), it feels extremely organic to the story and characters itself.
It also makes for GREAT tension with the John Walker character, which I didn't see coming. We obviously knew he'd play a part this season, but I didn't expect it to be this big of a role, and I didn't expect the tension between him and Sam and Bucky to crackle this much. It's just so good. I kept thinking this was going to be a Sam and Bucky at-odds/buddy cop thing - and that's obviously there for sure - but to throw Walker into the mix like this is fantastic and just takes it all to another level.
These episode lengths are just the right amount too. It's the first time watching a Disney+ series, be it Star Wars or Marvel, that I didn't feel short-changed at the end of each episode (as good as some of those episodes were). So, yes, we only have four episodes left, but it's basically eight episodes by previous standards, and I can't wait to see where it all goes.
This show is dope... agreed. I've enjoyed the fact that they are telling the story in a very realistic and somewhat blurred lines way... cause that's real life. It always drives me crazy when Hollywood takes a social position then tells the story along the clear lines that matches the writers good-guy/bad-guy bias. WRT the racial matters in this show, it doesn't feel like this is some major plot point to preach to the audience about how black folks are all victimized and white folks are all racist idiots. Rather it seems to acknowledge some of the complexities as a side plot, that may over the course of the story carry a naturally and organically heavier load.
I hate watching entertainment that are so clearly propaganda pieces about how this group of people are this and that group of people are that. I think it's dishonest and one-sided and almost never achieves the goal the writer thinks it will.
I have to admit I was a little worried about this direction with the banker in the last episode and the cops this episode... but the casting choice of John walkers girlfriend (?) and sidekick... and even the way the cops back off (rather than doubling down with Sam) and the banker shows favor verbally (although somewhat bafoonishly still doesn't help)... it also touches on how perceptions may influence decisions that folks make even when they are trying to do the right thing (cops desire to create peace while creating chaos, banker giving favorable words but rules he has don't help) , systems in place track on a different path.
I was also afraid they were simply going to make new CA John Walker an easy to dislike character, but one thing marvel does so well is blur the lines and create compelling arcs for the antagonist just as much as for the protagonist. I thought he came off as likable.
Man, that was a lot of words... I hope it wasn't confusing
Simpler: I'm loving the show. I don't typically like the hot-topic propaganda pieces, but this is handling well so far.
Very well said. I totally get what you're saying. I think that's what's so surprising and refreshing is that it's Marvel's first time really delving into these kinds of issues, yet they're handling them better than almost any other show does, for the very reasons you mentioned. And yeah, the depiction of John Walker, especially, is nails. I'm simultaneously rooting for him and also rooting against him. Even the "villains" of the show have a tinge of that as well where you at least understand where they're coming from. Everything is so perfectly nuanced so far and I'm just really loving it.
Agreed! It would have been way too easy to make John Walker & Battlestar into giant ******s so we really don't like them. Instead... I actually do like them, I just don't like what they represent.
My wife leaned over and said "the Flag Smashers sound like they might actually be kinda... good people? Though going about it the wrong way..?" - and I hope that gets explored some more as well. Very curious about the time during the Blip. If nations quit getting into political squabbles and pissing matches, maybe that was a glimpse of what things could be. And here comes these American patriotic heroes, coming into your country to beat you up.
Very interested. So far, so good.
And I loved Bucky's take - if Steve was wrong about you, maybe he was wrong about me. I love Winter Soldier and Civil War, and Steve trying to redeem Bucky is maybe my favorite part. Easy to forget that a guy like him might still doubt that he's worth it.
My wife leaned over and said "the Flag Smashers sound like they might actually be kinda... good people? Though going about it the wrong way..?" - and I hope that gets explored some more as well. Very curious about the time during the Blip. If nations quit getting into political squabbles and pissing matches, maybe that was a glimpse of what things could be. And here comes these American patriotic heroes, coming into your country to beat you up.
Very interested. So far, so good.
And I loved Bucky's take - if Steve was wrong about you, maybe he was wrong about me. I love Winter Soldier and Civil War, and Steve trying to redeem Bucky is maybe my favorite part. Easy to forget that a guy like him might still doubt that he's worth it.
Have to admit I'm not a fan of how Bucky and Sam came together, just kind of happenstance.
Feels contrived. I was hoping some bigger forces would unite them.
Feels contrived. I was hoping some bigger forces would unite them.
Yeah, that was one of the very few negatives for me this episode. Bucky just randomly showing up to the hangar that Sam is about to leave from - to convince him to retake the shield - and then Bucky is just like, "I'm going with you." Does Sam work out of that hangar often? Is he stationed at that base? How did Bucky know he'd be there and why did Bucky pick that moment to show up to convince him? I was hoping it was going to be more of a reluctant need on Sam's part to recruit Bucky, or a superior forces them to go on the mission together, or something. Granted, I love the way the real/next mission comes together - post therapy session, squaring off against Walker, going after Zemo, etc - but I do wish Sam and Bucky's initial meet up was better handled.
Yeah, but bigger forces aren't always reality, either. I think Bucky would truly want to find Sam and chew him out about the shield. Just happened to be on the way to a mission.
Of course, then one asks how does Bucky just walk onto a base like that?
Of course, then one asks how does Bucky just walk onto a base like that?
"Battlestar? Your name is 'Battlestar'? STOP THE TRUCK!!!!"
That was about my reaction to Cap's sidekick giving himself a "code name" like Battlestar.
And the exchange with the kid on the street calling Sam "Black Falcon" was just handled so well. It addressed race, but with a nice sense of humor.
"Are you calling me that because I'm Black and I'm the Falcon? Should I call you 'Black kid'?"
If you have never seen it, this (to me) is a sly reference to a great joke in the first episode of the Adult Swim series "Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law."
That was about my reaction to Cap's sidekick giving himself a "code name" like Battlestar.
And the exchange with the kid on the street calling Sam "Black Falcon" was just handled so well. It addressed race, but with a nice sense of humor.
"Are you calling me that because I'm Black and I'm the Falcon? Should I call you 'Black kid'?"
If you have never seen it, this (to me) is a sly reference to a great joke in the first episode of the Adult Swim series "Harvey Birdman: Attorney at Law."
Incredibly minor comics spoiler (not even sure you can call it that): In the comics, Power Broker is a specific person.redline248 said:
The guy who got himself killed referred to the powerbroker...generic term or someone specific?
Agree with most of the above. I wonder if Zemo is pulling the strings from the inside or how he's going to go next?
I'm also not buying that Walker isn't enhanced.
I'm also not buying that Walker isn't enhanced.
Because he's the freaking Winter Soldier.redline248 said:
Yeah, but bigger forces aren't always reality, either. I think Bucky would truly want to find Sam and chew him out about the shield. Just happened to be on the way to a mission.
Of course, then one asks how does Bucky just walk onto a base like that?
Quote:
Natasha Romanoff: I know who killed Fury. Most of the intelligence community doesn't believe he exists, the ones who do call him the Winter Soldier. He's credited with over two dozen assassinations in the last fifty years.
Steve Rogers: So he's a ghost story.
Natasha Romanoff: Five years ago I was escorting a nuclear engineer out of Iran, somebody shot out my tires near Odessa. We lost control, went straight over a cliff, I pulled us out, but the Winter Soldier was there. I was covering my engineer, so he shot him straight through me. [she pulls up her shirt to show him the scar on the side of her stomach] Soviet slug, no rifling. Bye-bye bikinis.
Steve Rogers: Yeah, I bet you look terrible in them now. [there's a hit of a smile from Natasha]
Natasha Romanoff: Going after him is a dead end. I know, I've tried. [Natasha holds up the flash drive] Like you said, he's a ghost story. [Steve takes the flash drive from her]
Steve Rogers: Well, let's find out what the ghost wants.
Interesting thread, as I've been wondering this myself...
For us, the audience, we know he's obviously still alive, but I guess the question is whether or not he's back in our primary movie timeline for good, and is just living a secluded life in his old age - or - if, after the bench scene, he went back to his alternate/Peggy timeline to live out his final days?
For the Average Joe citizen in the MCU, though, I'm wondering what the official word is? Was the public told that Cap died in the final Thanos battle? Do they think Cap is still young but just retired and in seclusion? Are they even aware that he time traveled? I'm assuming no, but if time travel isn't being acknowledged publicly, how is Thanos' returned explained to the public? Otherwise, on the public record, who/what were the Avengers fighting that resulted in Tony's death? Anyway, I know the moon conspiracy theory thing was brought up as a wink and a nod in the first episode, but I'm still curious as to what the official position is in-universe.
For us, the audience, we know he's obviously still alive, but I guess the question is whether or not he's back in our primary movie timeline for good, and is just living a secluded life in his old age - or - if, after the bench scene, he went back to his alternate/Peggy timeline to live out his final days?
For the Average Joe citizen in the MCU, though, I'm wondering what the official word is? Was the public told that Cap died in the final Thanos battle? Do they think Cap is still young but just retired and in seclusion? Are they even aware that he time traveled? I'm assuming no, but if time travel isn't being acknowledged publicly, how is Thanos' returned explained to the public? Otherwise, on the public record, who/what were the Avengers fighting that resulted in Tony's death? Anyway, I know the moon conspiracy theory thing was brought up as a wink and a nod in the first episode, but I'm still curious as to what the official position is in-universe.
Show is very good. That's it.
Episode 2 = badass
They jumped around a little too much this episode, but it's still absolutely nails.
I do need a badass Wintier Soldier scene. He's enhanced. He's got the arm. He's a world class assassin. He went toe to toe with Steve.
I do need a badass Wintier Soldier scene. He's enhanced. He's got the arm. He's a world class assassin. He went toe to toe with Steve.
Does the new Captain American sound like Jonah from Veep to anyone else?
Likes this episode a lot. Great job of getting into the plot and getting us interested in the supporting characters.
Likes this episode a lot. Great job of getting into the plot and getting us interested in the supporting characters.
Good episode. First show I've seen in a long time where the race issue was handled well. Ironically, maybe that's because it was filmed before all the current horsesh^t around it? Not sure.
Also, not sure how Walker can handle the shield like that regardless of his peak conditioning as a normal man. It's almost like it's attuned to him. Is that a function of the shield?
Anyway, looking forward to next week.
Also, not sure how Walker can handle the shield like that regardless of his peak conditioning as a normal man. It's almost like it's attuned to him. Is that a function of the shield?
Anyway, looking forward to next week.
I havent seen anything this woke since my freshman roommate chased a handful of minithins with a 4 pack of red bull
Yeah, did it seem like he wasn't at full strength?Farmer1906 said:
They jumped around a little too much this episode, but it's still absolutely nails.
I do need a badass Wintier Soldier scene. He's enhanced. He's got the arm. He's a world class assassin. He went toe to toe with Steve.
I agree. My wife watches a lot of the ABC and NBC shows (Grey's, Station 19, Chicago Fire, this is us, etc) and those shows are non stop eye roll wokeness. So far they've handled it fine in F&WS. It's not distracting.
redline248 said:Yeah, did it seem like he wasn't at full strength?Farmer1906 said:
They jumped around a little too much this episode, but it's still absolutely nails.
I do need a badass Wintier Soldier scene. He's enhanced. He's got the arm. He's a world class assassin. He went toe to toe with Steve.
With all super hero shows/movies they write the character's strength to what fits the story. I'm sure he'll get his moment. Just seems like they're trying too hard at the comedy at his expense. Minor nitpick for me.
Farmer1906 said:redline248 said:Yeah, did it seem like he wasn't at full strength?Farmer1906 said:
They jumped around a little too much this episode, but it's still absolutely nails.
I do need a badass Wintier Soldier scene. He's enhanced. He's got the arm. He's a world class assassin. He went toe to toe with Steve.
With all super hero shows/movies they write the character's strength to what fits the story. I'm sure he'll get his moment. Just seems like they're trying too hard at the comedy at his expense. Minor nitpick for me.
He's holding back. Remember he keeps talking about "Rule 2" with his therapist which is "Don't hurt anyone." He's trying not to kill anyone and has said that multiple times now.
He's Steve Rogers equal with decades of elite training and kills. When he unleashes these punk super soldiers won't be smiling anymore.
yes and it was very distractingQuinn said:
Does the new Captain American sound like Jonah from Veep to anyone else?
Likes this episode a lot. Great job of getting into the plot and getting us interested in the supporting characters.
Fightin TX Aggie said:The reporter did mention that even though he is not enhanced, the Walker character tests off the charts on normal human physical ability.Quote:
As far as him being the new Cap, was anyone else surprised at him throwing that shield around and catching it with such ease? I was always under the impression that one needs enhanced strength/reflexes to do that.
That part felt very Lance Armstrong to me. Like, Lance Armstrong tested off the charts, claimed he was clean, even cultivated this false image, but was very, very "enhanced". Also the way they've setup New Cap and black side kick vs Black Falcon and White Wolf feels very much like a conscious way to contrast a more "traditional"/90s white guy-black guy buddy-cop pairing with a more contemporary one. And, with the way they have handled race in this show so far, I am here for that.
Good lord though, Anthony Mackie is such a damn star in this. Every scene he is in he's bouncing around from serious to charming in such a smooth way.
As if the most punchable face in the MCU wasn't enough, he had to go and threaten Team Marvel Lethal Weapon. Bad move Walker
redline248 said:
I'm trying to put my thoughts together on the episode, so this post might be a lot of rambling.
First off, the guy playing Walker looks like someone who speaks British English, or something, and is faking an American accent. His chin/jaw look really off. As far as him being the new Cap, was anyone else surprised at him throwing that shield around and catching it with such ease? I was always under the impression that one needs enhanced strength/reflexes to do that. Also, want the audience to dislike you right away? Threaten the title characters.
I am not a fan of the girl from Solo. She wasn't believable in that, for me, and she isn't believable in this. Also, perhaps they will expand her role in other episodes, but for someone in the forefront, they gave her almost no lines. I am intrigued by whoever sent the texts to her. The guy who got himself killed referred to the powerbroker...generic term or someone specific?
The couple's session was unnecessary. Could have reached the same point without the soul searching and leg rubbing.
Was this show written last summer?
I loved it. Really gave them a chance to show off their chemistry and play off one another. It was such an effective scene to show the doubts Bucky has about himself.
Man, I'm really enjoying this show. I've always loved the chemistry between Falcon and WS. I agree with TCTTS that adding John Walker and Hoskins to the mix creates tension I didn't expect and man, the scenes with the two pairs sizzle. So good.
I am enjoying how we are getting to see really how Bucky is broken down. Sebastian is playing that very well in my opinion.
I'm not sure where I am yet on Falcon. He's confident and mission driven, but there is some regret there for sure. I do like that he doesn't want to talk about why he gave up the shield for now. I have a feeling we're going to get his reason once he ultimately gets it back.
Excited to see where things go with Zemo. Is he pulling the strings or will he becoming opportunistic.
I'm calling my shot that Zemo is going to reveal to the older Asian gentleman that Buck killed his son.
I am enjoying how we are getting to see really how Bucky is broken down. Sebastian is playing that very well in my opinion.
I'm not sure where I am yet on Falcon. He's confident and mission driven, but there is some regret there for sure. I do like that he doesn't want to talk about why he gave up the shield for now. I have a feeling we're going to get his reason once he ultimately gets it back.
Excited to see where things go with Zemo. Is he pulling the strings or will he becoming opportunistic.
I'm calling my shot that Zemo is going to reveal to the older Asian gentleman that Buck killed his son.
imjustsayin said:TCTTS said:
This show is dope.
And unlike anything we've seen in the MCU so far, in that it feels like they're starting to push the envelope in terms of sociopolitical issues, but instead of in an annoying way, for whatever reason, through the lens of the MCU, it feels fresh and exciting here. I know race being "injected" into stuff like this rubs some people here the wrong way, but this is not only a story straight out of the comics (Isaiah Bradley and all), it feels extremely organic to the story and characters itself.
It also makes for GREAT tension with the John Walker character, which I didn't see coming. We obviously knew he'd play a part this season, but I didn't expect it to be this big of a role, and I didn't expect the tension between him and Sam and Bucky to crackle this much. It's just so good. I kept thinking this was going to be a Sam and Bucky at-odds/buddy cop thing - and that's obviously there for sure - but to throw Walker into the mix like this is fantastic and just takes it all to another level.
These episode lengths are just the right amount too. It's the first time watching a Disney+ series, be it Star Wars or Marvel, that I didn't feel short-changed at the end of each episode (as good as some of those episodes were). So, yes, we only have four episodes left, but it's basically eight episodes by previous standards, and I can't wait to see where it all goes.
This show is dope... agreed. I've enjoyed the fact that they are telling the story in a very realistic and somewhat blurred lines way... cause that's real life. It always drives me crazy when Hollywood takes a social position then tells the story along the clear lines that matches the writers good-guy/bad-guy bias. WRT the racial matters in this show, it doesn't feel like this is some major plot point to preach to the audience about how black folks are all victimized and white folks are all racist idiots. Rather it seems to acknowledge some of the complexities as a side plot, that may over the course of the story carry a naturally and organically heavier load.
I hate watching entertainment that are so clearly propaganda pieces about how this group of people are this and that group of people are that. I think it's dishonest and one-sided and almost never achieves the goal the writer thinks it will.
I have to admit I was a little worried about this direction with the banker in the last episode and the cops this episode... but the casting choice of John walkers girlfriend (?) and sidekick... and even the way the cops back off (rather than doubling down with Sam) and the banker shows favor verbally (although somewhat bafoonishly still doesn't help)... it also touches on how perceptions may influence decisions that folks make even when they are trying to do the right thing (cops desire to create peace while creating chaos, banker giving favorable words but rules he has don't help) , systems in place track on a different path.
I was also afraid they were simply going to make new CA John Walker an easy to dislike character, but one thing marvel does so well is blur the lines and create compelling arcs for the antagonist just as much as for the protagonist. I thought he came off as likable.
Man, that was a lot of words... I hope it wasn't confusing
Simpler: I'm loving the show. I don't typically like the hot-topic propaganda pieces, but this is handling well so far.
Apparently, the show is still in danger of being racially insensitive.
https://www.inverse.com/entertainment/battlestar-marvel-falcon-winter-soldier-sidekick-or-partner/amp
I'm really enjoying it so far. So does the new cap have super powers? I thought he said he didn't have super strength, but then he immediately throws that shield like it was nothing.
I loved the line "If Steve was wrong about you, was he wrong about me?"
It was such a great distillation of the character in a single line
The race discussion is pretty obvious in the show but I have also been pleased with some network cop dramas I have watched handle it as well (The Rookie, Prodigal Son). It is a natural fallout of the last several years and hasn't turned into an ACAB situation, but is at least somewhat more nuanced.
It was such a great distillation of the character in a single line
The race discussion is pretty obvious in the show but I have also been pleased with some network cop dramas I have watched handle it as well (The Rookie, Prodigal Son). It is a natural fallout of the last several years and hasn't turned into an ACAB situation, but is at least somewhat more nuanced.
Like the "you can't punch your way out of everything" callback line in the opening sequence.
Really enjoying this series. Sam and Bucky are great together and I think I'm going to like where all these moving plot pieces come together.
Really enjoying this series. Sam and Bucky are great together and I think I'm going to like where all these moving plot pieces come together.
InternetFan02 said:yes and it was very distractingQuinn said:
Does the new Captain American sound like Jonah from Veep to anyone else?
Likes this episode a lot. Great job of getting into the plot and getting us interested in the supporting characters.
To me the distraction is that he's Kurt Russell's son. Once I found that out I can't see him and not see Kurt on screen.
I saw that article too. No matter how woke something is, it can still be woker. Just ridiculous.
They made it clear he is not powered, but just extremely skilled, heroic, & peak human physicality.
They made it clear he is not powered, but just extremely skilled, heroic, & peak human physicality.
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