You quite literally have *not* understood everything you've heard them say, and it's beyond obvious that you do, in fact, need the nuances of the show's themes explained to you. In no uncertain terms, you've missed the entire point of the show.

exitone said:

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Cap's new uniform needs a little work...

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Definitely in agreement here. Something about it just doesn't work for me. annie's going to get mad at me for saying this, but it's just too... white. That, and the head piece looks awkward.

I think it's almost a bit too spot on from the comic version, feels a bit too comic book-y with the color palette.

I love how they took Cap's uniform from his original stage show version in First Avenger to the badass navy version in Winter Soldier, would love to see that sort of take here.

Quote:

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That doesn't mean anybody gets to resort to terrorism or killing people because they don't agree with people politically.

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Hey, thanks for the cliffnotes version of Sam's speech.

I have to partly agree with Annie that Sam asking the GRC board member not to call them terrorists right after they literally tried to burn him alive was pretty ridiculous. You can make the point that their policies were driving radicalization without insulting the audience's intelligence by making it seem like Karli was just misunderstood.

Every terrorist in history has a rationalization for their actions...that doesn't mean they are not terrorists, and shouldn't be labeled such.

The main problems with Sam's speech were lack of brevity, overly simplistic and naive, lacked solutions, seemed to somehow sway the GRC members without any real rebuttal, and rang hollow.

He rambled for much of it, and it really seemed to lack focus, it needed to be edited down and have an underlying, quotable message to truly sell it. He just kind of glosses over the fact that the bearded GRC member brings up, what the heck are they supposed to do with the half of existence that blipped back into existence and find someone else living in their house? The issue is too complex to be summarily refuted in a single passionate speech by an individual that up until a few weeks before that, had no clue of the issues going on with the GRC. Worse yet, is that Sam offers up no solutions to this issue that needs to be handled as quickly as possible. Despite all this, these GRC board members who have spent months figuring out the best plan, then get lectured by a superhero with only a semblance of understanding of the logistical nightmares they've faced, are somehow swayed by the 60 second speech where he essentially blames them for the terrorist attacks. The curious thing about all of this is despite Sam feeling so passionately about the blip refugees, we are never given any sort of indication that he actually cared about their plight prior to that other than a single conversation with Karli. Maybe a single moment of him supplying goods to a refugee camp would have helped bring some meat to that speech.

Overall, I liked the idea of Sam's character arc, but I hated the execution. He was like a walking exposition. They needed less telling and more showing. And the dialogue for this show was just so amazingly terrible, even for a comic book show.

Again, there was a lot to like: Bradley, Walker, Zemo. However, the negatives just really outweigh the positives. I have no problem with shows getting preachy, but it needs to be done very well, otherwise it can sour the viewing experience, which is what happened at least for me.

The biggest irony to me is that they ran away from the virus angle because it's too controversial... But kept:
"Don't let them breathe"
"His life mattered"
People filming an officer killing
The Tuskegee airmen and forced medical testing
A black man thrown in prison for the exact same thing Steve Rogers did
Bigoted police giving Sam a hard time
Bigoted banker giving Sam and his sister a hard time

This show pulled zero punches when it came to race and was better for it, if a bit too on-the-nose at times. I'm disappointed they couldn't find the same fortitude for the virus.

Also my wife and I couldn't decide if the power broker or the new suit was more disappointing. The same people that made Black Panther's suit made that thing?!

Overall we liked it, Wandavision was the more impactful show but every one can't be a classic. It really feels like the Ultron of disney+.

If you came away from this thinking they said killing people you disagree with politically is ok then yes, you missed the show.

Sam has a conversation with Karli where he explicitly tells her that he agrees with her but she can't do things the way she's doing them. Bucky, Sam, and Walker then spend the last episode saving the people that the Flag Smasher tried to kill. If you want to argue that the Flag Smasher weren't a group to be sympathized with then that's a different topic, I don't think the show did a good job showing that (and I think that may have to do with some of what was taken out).

People of all different races do have problems, but if you don't think the black community faces more discrimination you're horribly naive.

Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag said:

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I have to partly agree with Annie that Sam asking the GRC board member not to call them terrorists right after they literally tried to burn him alive was pretty ridiculous. You can make the point that their policies were driving radicalization without insulting the audience's intelligence by making it seem like Karli was just misunderstood.

Every terrorist in history has a rationalization for their actions...that doesn't mean they are not terrorists, and shouldn't be labeled such.

The main problems with Sam's speech were lack of brevity, overly simplistic and naive, lacked solutions, seemed to somehow sway the GRC members without any real rebuttal, and rang hollow.

He rambled for much of it, and it really seemed to lack focus, it needed to be edited down and have an underlying, quotable message to truly sell it. He just kind of glosses over the fact that the bearded GRC member brings up, what the heck are they supposed to do with the half of existence that blipped back into existence and find someone else living in their house? The issue is too complex to be summarily refuted in a single passionate speech by an individual that up until a few weeks before that, had no clue of the issues going on with the GRC. Worse yet, is that Sam offers up no solutions to this issue that needs to be handled as quickly as possible. Despite all this, these GRC board members who have spent months figuring out the best plan, then get lectured by a superhero with only a semblance of understanding of the logistical nightmares they've faced, are somehow swayed by the 60 second speech where he essentially blames them for the terrorist attacks. The curious thing about all of this is despite Sam feeling so passionately about the blip refugees, we are never given any sort of indication that he actually cared about their plight prior to that other than a single conversation with Karli. Maybe a single moment of him supplying goods to a refugee camp would have helped bring some meat to that speech.

Overall, I liked the idea of Sam's character arc, but I hated the execution. He was like a walking exposition. They needed less telling and more showing. And the dialogue for this show was just so amazingly terrible, even for a comic book show.

Again, there was a lot to like: Bradley, Walker, Zemo. However, the negatives just really outweigh the positives. I have no problem with shows getting preachy, but it needs to be done very well, otherwise it can sour the viewing experience, which is what happened at least for me.

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Except that *not calling them terrorists* doesn't equate to excusing their actions. In other words, Sam's point wasn't that they weren't terrorizing. They unequivocally were. His point was that no one was LISTENING to each other; that if the GRC had started some sort of dialogue with the individuals who went on to become the Flag Smasher, they may never have *become* terrorists in the first place. They became terrorists because of a situation in which neither side would hear the other out, i.e. the GRC's bullheaded-ness was partly to blame for the Flag-Smashers eventual terrorist actions. So Sam was essentially saying "you don't get to have a hand in lighting the match but then blame only the other side for arson."

That said, I'm in complete agreement that the situation was way too complex to be solved by that speech, that the speech itself was way too long and rambling, and that Sam's dressing down of the GRC in that moment was too blame-heavy toward that side. Still, though, Sam wasn't excusing the actions of the Flag-Smashers by trying to argue that they weren't terrorist. He was calling out the GRC's hypocrisy, specifically, for bull-heatedly perpetuating a situation that lead to the Flag-Smashers becoming terrorists. There's a very crucial and nuanced difference there.

Dr. Not Yet Dr. Ag said:

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Karli has to be the most annoying character in the MCU, so glad she died.

I found the "don't call them terrorists" so ridiculous given the events of the series and of this episode. Also, Sam's debate with the GRC member felt like Michael Scott's debate with Oscar about China. That was some terrible dialogue, and felt way too preachy. I really wish they hadn't gone there in this series, but I guess that was to be expected.

I didn't feel like we got the emotional payoff I was expecting with Bucky and the Asian man. It felt more like they rushed that scene and I really felt nothing because it was over so quickly.

I liked the Bucky-Walker quasi friendship. I also really enjoyed Isaiah's redemption at the end, and felt a lot more emotional about that than Bucky and the Asian dad.

I feel like I went from really liking Sam as a character at the beginning of this series, to being slightly annoyed of him by the end.

Overall, there were many things to enjoy about this series, but it just wasn't that good. I'm pretty lukewarm on the whole thing. I think a lot of this was due to re-writes, although I'm not sure the original would've been much better. I think this is a rare miss for Marvel, although I'm holding out hope that Loki redeems them.

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100% agree.

But overall I really enjoyed the show. The tribute in the museum to Isaiah was really touching. That actor sold it too.

And most will disagree, but John Walker, despite his rushed character transformation, needs to be in many more shows and films in the MCU. From an everyday guy getting thrust into super hero status point of view, his character felt the most real. I really liked where they took him (I know.. all from the comics). And his character was definitely needed to show the difference between a nearly perfect morality (Steve Rogers), a "working my ass off to live up to the legacy" morality (Sam), and the "military trained foot soldier" having to learn that no issues are merely black and white.. you have to find and appreciate the nuances.

Sam's development was very standard Hollywood cliche. Winter Soldier's was emotional and almost heartbreaking. John Walker's felt the most real.

I can see both points. And you make some good ones. Pretty much everyone on this thread has made good points. I know a lot of this show was on the nose with what's going on today, but no need to villainize each other with what we felt watching the show. I think the show did its job by making us all have unique and understandable reactions while still generally liking it. We need to get back to appreciating each other's experiences without criticizing each other's beliefs.

And Sam isn't perfect. He knows he doesn't have all the solutions. His speech, to me, while rushed and not really providing enough gravity to result in the solution it did, was more about how the world should strive to move forward after a nearly catastrophic event ****ed up EVERYTHING than it was about laying out a specific blueprint. His goal was to get them to see both sides and understand the human compassion element.

Can totally be on board with that. Well said.

I guess my problem with that interpretation is that the show basically gave us no reason to believe the GRC was being bullheaded in their approach. I have to imagine this is due to the re-writes, but i can only judge a show by what i am able to see. Based on the finished product, what exactly did the GRC do wrong, and what was the alternative? We also have no clue whether they actually never reached out to the refugees prior to making their decision. We have only seen a single, very biased point of view in Karli. The issue with the "don't call them terrorists" line is not that I think they are excusing Karli, and saying it is okay to kill people, it's that Sam is talking down to someone about calling someone a terrorist when that individual moments prior was nearly burned alive by one. It comes off as incredibly tone deaf and absurd.

It's like someone telling a rape victim right after they were raped by a drug addicted, developmentally delayed, impoverished individual to not call him a rapist because of the hardships he went through in life. Sure, there is some slight nuance to the conversation, but now is not the time to bring up that nuance right after they nearly died.

I think my favorite thing about this show is finding out that Sam is a South Louisiana good old boy. I was joking about the Red Wing boots before, but he probably has a pair somewhere. "You earned this ass whipping."

Can't expect Annie to understand the bro-bonding of the last two episodes.

Remember that it's very easy to see a poster's posting history and where they spend their time on TA. Typically pretty useful information for when someone posts some off the wall inflammatory something and you're trying to decide whether to engage with them or not.

That was the disguise mask technology we saw in Winter Soldier.

Overall, I enjoyed the series. I went in really liking the primary characters, and came out with that like unchanged.

As to the final episode, things I liked were Sam's Cap suit, the action was good if not a bit generic, and I loved the part at the Smithsonian with Isiah. I also really liked how the actor portraying John Walker did - that was bound to be a tough role to portray in the same way that it is virtually impossible for a new football coach to step in to the shadows of someone like RC Slocum, Mack Brown, or Urban Meyer.

Things I didn't like so much - most particularly, Bucky's revelation to the old Japanese man about killing his son. That scene was so poorly handled that I almost missed the awesome Isiah sequence that followed. That should have been an incredibly emotional sequence, but really, it was just a quiet and brief announcement followed by Bucky just leaving. Imagine the low then high emotional response this show could have ended on had they just handled that Bucky sequence better.

Karli and the Flag-Smashers were weak, that is true - very true. I'll throw out the Dark Elves from Thor The Dark World as an at least equally awful villain, however.

I did not care for Sharon Carter's new villainess role. Where the f*** does that come from?

Elaine Benes is annoying in everything she does (that I have seen, anyway) outside of Seinfeld. I have questions about who she is, who she represents, etc, but really, I honestly don't give a crap if those questions are ever answered. I'd rather not see her return to the MCU in any capacity.

One other thing that was probably inevitable with this show was the racism angle. All of that might have made more impact had a certain very vocal segment of our society not deemed just about every damned thing they lay eyes upon that they do not like/approve/agree with to be racist. JUST STOP WITH THE GD RACISM crap. But, the show did explore some racial issues in our nation's history with the government's treatment of the black super soldiers. Sam's speech at the end was just a bit too preachy even though there were some good points included. Someone else pointed out that these characters have a built-in audience, proven out by previous MCU movies. True point. But if there are millions of racists out there who won't approve a black Cap, then why did Marvel think they could make this series and expect to get eyeballs watching? Because largely those racists are figments of their imagination.

What that final scene with Isiah reminded me of was how our society has seemingly revered the contributions to the air war over Europe of the Tuskegee Airmen. Rather than being preachy about all these imagined racists, this show should have taken more an approach such as that with the Airmen. Make it a point to bring Isiah's story to the American people in more ways than just an exhibit in the Smithsonian, something like that. I don't know how that would have fit into the overall story, but it would have been a way to do a positive turnaround on a negative experience.

His suit needs a top to the headpiece and he would look fine. I understand liking the wind through your hair, but it's goofy looking. And if you are regularly flying at airplane cruising heights, you would think you would want as much head protection as you can get anyways.

"I'm a black man carrying the Stars and Stripes. What don't I understand? Every time I pick this thing up, I know there are millions of people who are going to hate me for it."

If you hear the line only as, "Those evil white racists will never accept me" then I can totally understand it being upsetting. When I thought about it longer, it rang more true when you consider:

• There are black people who will judge him for choosing to wear the stars and stripes, just as Isaiah articulated earlier in the series.
• There are people who will never accept him because he is not Steve.
• Some will hate him because he is by definition a symbol of America, and while most of us see that as truth, justice, honor and all that we love, many around the planet see it differently.
• In a post-blip world, heck, it appears a large portion of the population doesn't even want countries or borders of any kind. One who wishes to "smash a flag" does not get chills when they see the walking personification of the strongest country on the planet.
• Lastly, sadly, yes there are some still out there who will hate him simply for the color of his skin. It's this group I'd sincerely like to believe is in the small minority, thousands not millions. God, at least I hope so.

Nice summary, yeah, I took it to be far more than just a black/white thing. Rolls along with the rest of his talk about how there aren't any easy solutions but you have to keep working to find the better one.

Yoda said:

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"I'm a black man carrying the Stars and Stripes. What don't I understand? Every time I pick this thing up, I know there are millions of people who are going to hate me for it."

If you hear the line only as, "Those evil white racists will never accept me" then I can totally understand it being upsetting. When I thought about it longer, it rang more true when you consider:

• There are black people who will judge him for choosing to wear the stars and stripes, just as Isaiah articulated earlier in the series.
• There are people who will never accept him because he is not Steve.
• Some will hate him because he is by definition a symbol of America, and while most of us see that as truth, justice, honor and all that we love, many around the planet see it differently.
• In a post-blip world, heck, it appears a large portion of the population doesn't even want countries or borders of any kind. One who wishes to "smash a flag" does not get chills when they see the walking personification of the strongest country on the planet.
• Lastly, sadly, yes there are some still out there who will hate him simply for the color of his skin. It's this group I'd sincerely like to believe is in the small minority, thousands not millions. God, at least I hope so.

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Good points.

And we are faulty by viewing this through the lens of what we are experiencing in real life. Even though a lot of this show was analgous to real life, we have to remember that the world that exists in this show literally just survived near wipe out and is dealing with a fantastical reality where people disappeared in thin air and then randomly popped back up 5 years later after the survivors had moved on.

I don't think enough depth has been given yet to what exactly the overall populous and world leaders were feeling and going through during all of this. a minor portion of Endgame with Steve, Natasha, and Tony in Endgame and a tiny bit in Wandavision gave us a slight idea. But we don't know what exactly was happening in the rest of the world.