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**The Falcon and the Winter Soldier Discussion Thread**

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TexasAggie_02
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In reply to YouBet • 11:28p, 4/18/21
AG
YouBet said:
redline248 said:
Your last sense is incomprehensible, to me. What people would be upset at the acceptance of a Black man being Captain America?

I assume you're talking about legitimate, hardcore racists? Those kind of people aren't watching this show...are they?


I believe he is talking about black people considering Isaiahs comment about a black man taking up the mantle of CA would essentially be traitorous to blacks.

But, I'm speculating here.

Regarding this episode and the teasers it would make us cry....about the only thing that made me cry was Elaines absolutely jarring cameo that completely took me out of the show.

Is that the mystery character we've been teased? Seriously? The same exact character she plays in almost everything else she's ever done? Don't get me wrong; I think she's great but that was so out of left field and nonsensical that Kurt Russell's kids face in the show actually was my face in real life.

I don't know need to see that character again because if she is leading Hydra then they might as well have Dr. Evil at the helm.


Remember, covid screwed up the marvel release schedule. It has been rumored that Elaine Bennes is introduced in Black Widow. Falcon and winter soldier was then supposed to have been the first of the shows released last year. If true, that scene with Walker would've had more weight.
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Capitol Ag
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In reply to TCTTS • 8:38a, 4/19/21
AG
TCTTS said:
Fightin TX Aggie said:
The thing about the racism angle and whether America is ready for a black man to carry the shield is that literally no fan of Marvel that I've ever heard thinks a black man should not carry the shield. Some thought Cap should pass it to Bucky because of their great friendship and because he is an actual super soldier, but most people were completely cool with Sam as the next Cap.

Basically, America is completely cool with a black Captain America, and honestly that should not surprise anyone.

Something I will never understand is when people assume that a single character or characters speak for the filmmakers, a large swath of the viewing public, or society as a whole.

Isaiah Bradley is ONE VOICE on this show. And sure, he likely speaks for a sizable portion of the black community, but in-show, his opinions are CLEARLY being presented as ONE side of the argument, with Sam at the CENTER of that argument, forced to choose a path. I mean, this is story-telling 101. The hero is presented with multiple paths, is presented with multiple, fun-house mirrors of himself (Bradley, Walker, Bucky, etc), each with their own philosophies on the shield and what Sam should do with it.

- We've heard versions of, "Take the shield! It's yours!" (the THESIS).

- We've heard versions of, "Don't take the shield! It's corrupt/mine!" (the ANTI-THESIS).

- Episode six will then see the SYNTHESIS, in which Sam forges his OWN path - a NEW way - using the info he learned, and the tools he collected, in the thesis and anti-thesis.

You're complaining as if the show endorsed Bradley's take in the end, when it's now beyond obvious that Sam is choosing to KEEP the shield, just on his OWN terms, with his OWN approach/philosophies.

As Harry Lime so eloquently explains above, the whole point of the show is to examine whether SAM is ready, not whether WE are.
Bingo!

Sam and his sister even state that while they feel very much for Bradley, Sam needs to forge his own path with his own beliefs. What happened to Bradley was horrific and wrong but Sam also doesn't need to be burdened with that bitterness, while completely justified from Bradley's perspective, to slow him down. Cap also went through a similar progression as a character where he first becomes a war bond performer, than finally gets his chance to fight, then "dies" and is reborn in the modern day and in Avengers askes Fury if the Stars and Stripes is a bit old fashioned. Fury states that old fashioned is something we need right now. Cap spends the vast majority of his character arc trying to live up to the shield and what it represents and also does so in the comics. He's bitter he missed the last 60+ years in ice and his time with his love. He can tell the world has changed and he doesn't like a lot that has happened. He hates bullies but can see that sometimes his own side is the bully. Then he discovers Hydra has infiltrated SHIELD and he could have just walked away. He doesn't.

What I would love to see is Bradley get an opportunity to at least feel some redemption and healing in this series or at least in a future movie. He was wronged and who can blame him for feeing this way? But, bitterness is not a healthy way to live life. It essentially allows his tormentors to re-torture him every day. As Tony says to Steve in Endgame, "Turns out, resentment is corrosive, and I hate it." I'd love and feel his character deserves some sort of closure with what has happened to him.
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Brian Earl Spilner
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8:45a, 4/19/21
AG
I think Elaine was brought in as a red herring and the power broker IS Carter.
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Brian Earl Spilner
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In reply to TexasAggie_02 • 8:46a, 4/19/21
AG
Quote:
Remember, covid screwed up the marvel release schedule. It has been rumored that Elaine Bennes is introduced in Black Widow. Falcon and winter soldier was then supposed to have been the first of the shows released last year. If true, that scene with Walker would've had more weight.
If anything, this makes the audience feel exactly like Walker did.

"Who the f is this?"
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Brian Earl Spilner
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8:50a, 4/19/21
AG
So here's a possibly dumb question. I just rewatched Cap 1 over the weekend (which I hadn't seen since theaters), and it occurred to me...

Who took over Hydra after Red Skull disappeared to Vormir? He was the head, and I know "two others will take its place", but do we ever get any of that history filled in?

At the end of the movie, it seems like most of his lackeys and second-in-command are all dead.

Was it the AI from Winter Soldier?
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Farmer1906
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In reply to Brian Earl Spilner • 8:56a, 4/19/21
AG



Quote:
Steve Rogers: Arnim Zola was a German scientist who worked for the Red Skull. He's been dead for years.
Dr. Arnim Zola: First correction, I am Swiss. Second, look around you. I have never been more alive. In 1972 I received a terminal diagnosis. Science could not save my body, my mind, however, that was worth saving on two hundred thousand feet of data banks. You are standing in my brain.
Steve Rogers: How did you get here?
Dr. Arnim Zola: Invited.
Natasha Romanoff: It was Operation Paperclip after World War II. SHIELD recruited German scientists with strategic value.
Dr. Arnim Zola: They thought I could help their cause. I also helped my own.
Steve Rogers: HYDRA died with the Red Skull.
Dr. Arnim Zola: Cut off one head, two more shall take its place.
Steve Rogers: Prove it.
Dr. Arnim Zola: Accessing archive. [the computer screen shows them old footage of Johann Schmidt/Red Skull, of the how the original SHIELD founders] HYDRA was founded on the belief that humanity could not be trusted with its own freedom. What we did not realize, was that if you try to take that freedom, they resist. The war taught us much. Humanity needed to surrender its freedom willingly. After the war, SHIELD was founded and I was recruited. The new HYDRA grew. A beautiful parasite inside SHIELD. For seventy years HYDRA has been secretly feeding crisis, reaping war. And when history did not cooperate, history was changed.
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Brian Earl Spilner
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In reply to Farmer1906 • 8:58a, 4/19/21
AG
Ok, figured. Thanks.

To be honest I forgot he was captured and not killed, so I thought someone had to "upload him" from within SHIELD.

Probably gonna rewatch TWS this week, too.
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Farmer1906
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8:59a, 4/19/21
AG
At least that is the only info we have. They could also introduce someone else.
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One Eyed Reveille
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9:00a, 4/19/21
AG
Too late TCTTS
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YouBet
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In reply to TexasAggie_02 • 9:35a, 4/19/21
AG
TexasAggie_02 said:
YouBet said:
redline248 said:
Your last sense is incomprehensible, to me. What people would be upset at the acceptance of a Black man being Captain America?

I assume you're talking about legitimate, hardcore racists? Those kind of people aren't watching this show...are they?


I believe he is talking about black people considering Isaiahs comment about a black man taking up the mantle of CA would essentially be traitorous to blacks.

But, I'm speculating here.

Regarding this episode and the teasers it would make us cry....about the only thing that made me cry was Elaines absolutely jarring cameo that completely took me out of the show.

Is that the mystery character we've been teased? Seriously? The same exact character she plays in almost everything else she's ever done? Don't get me wrong; I think she's great but that was so out of left field and nonsensical that Kurt Russell's kids face in the show actually was my face in real life.

I don't know need to see that character again because if she is leading Hydra then they might as well have Dr. Evil at the helm.


Remember, covid screwed up the marvel release schedule. It has been rumored that Elaine Bennes is introduced in Black Widow. Falcon and winter soldier was then supposed to have been the first of the shows released last year. If true, that scene with Walker would've had more weight.
I guess that would make that scene make more sense, but I'm not sure it would keep me from reacting the same to it. I was just really put off by that character for some reason.
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rhutton125
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10:05a, 4/19/21
AG
It was weird to say such a ridiculous character name in such a matter-of-fact voice and lack of accent.

It's also kind of a "I am Khan" / "my real name is Agatha Harkness" thing where some nerds will get it but most casual audiences go "what?".
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Capitol Ag
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In reply to Farmer1906 • 11:13a, 4/19/21
AG
Farmer1906 said:



Quote:
Steve Rogers: Arnim Zola was a German scientist who worked for the Red Skull. He's been dead for years.
Dr. Arnim Zola: First correction, I am Swiss. Second, look around you. I have never been more alive. In 1972 I received a terminal diagnosis. Science could not save my body, my mind, however, that was worth saving on two hundred thousand feet of data banks. You are standing in my brain.
Steve Rogers: How did you get here?
Dr. Arnim Zola: Invited.
Natasha Romanoff: It was Operation Paperclip after World War II. SHIELD recruited German scientists with strategic value.
Dr. Arnim Zola: They thought I could help their cause. I also helped my own.
Steve Rogers: HYDRA died with the Red Skull.
Dr. Arnim Zola: Cut off one head, two more shall take its place.
Steve Rogers: Prove it.
Dr. Arnim Zola: Accessing archive. [the computer screen shows them old footage of Johann Schmidt/Red Skull, of the how the original SHIELD founders] HYDRA was founded on the belief that humanity could not be trusted with its own freedom. What we did not realize, was that if you try to take that freedom, they resist. The war taught us much. Humanity needed to surrender its freedom willingly. After the war, SHIELD was founded and I was recruited. The new HYDRA grew. A beautiful parasite inside SHIELD. For seventy years HYDRA has been secretly feeding crisis, reaping war. And when history did not cooperate, history was changed.
Hmmm. Get's me thinking. Red Skull was the head cut off, and Zola is part of the "2 more that takes it's place". Where is the 2nd head? Is it Zola's algorithm or another person and Zola and his algorithm are one in the same?
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Capitol Ag
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In reply to rhutton125 • 11:25a, 4/19/21
AG
rhutton125 said:
It was weird to say such a ridiculous character name in such a matter-of-fact voice and lack of accent.

It's also kind of a "I am Khan" / "my real name is Agatha Harkness" thing where some nerds will get it but most casual audiences go "what?".
Since these stories have their origins in the comics, I feel it's probably a very good idea to go in expecting that there will be some characters that will be introduced in such a way. I had no idea who she was either, but just figured she's in the comics and went and listened to New Rockstar's, Heavy Spoilers and Screen Crush's explanations of her in the comics. I take more of an approach that it's not Marvel's fault the casual fan has no idea who this is.

Plus, with Agatha, so many had already figured that Haun was her, it was a mere formality when she finally said her real name. I know many avoid the New Rockstar, Screen Crush type Easter egg episodes and summaries but to me, as one who was a casual comic reader, they are essential to help me understand the story better, who the characters are and where they fit into the storyline in the comics so that I can get an idea of how they will fit into the MCU. If people do not watch these, they may feel like the character intros are more fanboy service but honestly, it seems like these intros are fine given the type of character they are and tips off the casual viewer that this person might be important. Considering the level of actor is playing the character should also tip off the casual fan.
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Claude!
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In reply to Capitol Ag • 11:33a, 4/19/21
Capitol Ag said:
Farmer1906 said:
Hmmm. Get's me thinking. Red Skull was the head cut off, and Zola is part of the "2 more that takes it's place". Where is the 2nd head? Is it Zola's algorithm or another person and Zola and his algorithm are one in the same?
I don't think the second head necessarily has to be another person in leadership. It's more an allusion to the myth of the hydra and how difficult it is to kill.
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MooreTrucker
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In reply to Capitol Ag • 12:05p, 4/19/21
AG
That's fine if they don't want to expand their audience to the more casual fan, but as shown on this thread, not having any idea who she is is off-putting to the less-fervent comic book fan. And she may be important based on who the actress is, but with only one more episode will we ever find that out?
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Capitol Ag
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In reply to MooreTrucker • 12:38p, 4/19/21
AG
MooreTrucker said:
That's fine if they don't want to expand their audience to the more casual fan, but as shown on this thread, not having any idea who she is is off-putting to the less-fervent comic book fan. And she may be important based on who the actress is, but with only one more episode will we ever find that out?
I understand. That's why I just cannot recommend watching the summation/Easter egg shows enough. Helps me get things I missed and explains a lot. I've really never felt the story lines are spoiled by them either as they are just like us and can only comment on what they have seen on the show and most talk of the future of the series is nothing more than conjecture and fun guessing. Think Mephisto and hexagons. To me it adds to the fun of it.
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TexasAggie_02
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In reply to Capitol Ag • 12:38p, 4/19/21
AG
Capitol Ag said:
Farmer1906 said:



Quote:
Steve Rogers: Arnim Zola was a German scientist who worked for the Red Skull. He's been dead for years.
Dr. Arnim Zola: First correction, I am Swiss. Second, look around you. I have never been more alive. In 1972 I received a terminal diagnosis. Science could not save my body, my mind, however, that was worth saving on two hundred thousand feet of data banks. You are standing in my brain.
Steve Rogers: How did you get here?
Dr. Arnim Zola: Invited.
Natasha Romanoff: It was Operation Paperclip after World War II. SHIELD recruited German scientists with strategic value.
Dr. Arnim Zola: They thought I could help their cause. I also helped my own.
Steve Rogers: HYDRA died with the Red Skull.
Dr. Arnim Zola: Cut off one head, two more shall take its place.
Steve Rogers: Prove it.
Dr. Arnim Zola: Accessing archive. [the computer screen shows them old footage of Johann Schmidt/Red Skull, of the how the original SHIELD founders] HYDRA was founded on the belief that humanity could not be trusted with its own freedom. What we did not realize, was that if you try to take that freedom, they resist. The war taught us much. Humanity needed to surrender its freedom willingly. After the war, SHIELD was founded and I was recruited. The new HYDRA grew. A beautiful parasite inside SHIELD. For seventy years HYDRA has been secretly feeding crisis, reaping war. And when history did not cooperate, history was changed.
Hmmm. Get's me thinking. Red Skull was the head cut off, and Zola is part of the "2 more that takes it's place". Where is the 2nd head? Is it Zola's algorithm or another person and Zola and his algorithm are one in the same?
if you count Agents of SHEILD as canon (which is debatable), HYDRA is an ancient organization that has infiltrated every facet of human society. Red Skull was not the head of HYDRA, but was in a particular position to exploit the Nazi regime to the betterment of HYDRA. Same with HYDRA infiltration in the US and the USSR. I would imagine after the Cold War ended, HYDRA was all in on SHIELD at that point.

On Agents of SHIELD, it's revealed that Powers Boothe (well, bye.gif) was one of many "heads" of HYDRA. He was the Security Council Chairman in The Avengers that ordered the nuke to be deployed on NYC.
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Beat40
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In reply to MooreTrucker • 1:46p, 4/19/21
MooreTrucker said:
That's fine if they don't want to expand their audience to the more casual fan, but as shown on this thread, not having any idea who she is is off-putting to the less-fervent comic book fan. And she may be important based on who the actress is, but with only one more episode will we ever find that out?


What? I'd say by the fact that we have two Antman movies with a third on the way, two guardians of the galaxy with a third scheduled for production, and a black widow movie that Marvel has done very well expanding their audience to the more casual fan.

How many casual fans knew who the winter soldier was when the the title Captain America: The Winter Soldier was announced?

Hell, I never read any comics growing up and only casually new of Captain America, Thor, and Ironman. I never knew GOTG existed or many of these other avenger characters really existed. I knew more about DC than I did marvel.

Now I know so much more about the marvel universe that I probably ever will about DC. I'm listening to podcasts and watching Easter egg videos now. I will probably never read a comic the rest of my life either.

I can understand why it's weird to have a character shown up that you know no connection to when the writing is that we should know who it is. But I think it's kind of disingenuous to say Marvel hasn't expanded their audience to the casual fan. As a matter of fact, the only reason we have a series called The Falcon and Winter Solider is precisely because Marvel has successfully brought the casual fan into their universe.

I'm sure this character is coming back in some way.
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rhutton125
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1:54p, 4/19/21
AG
I think it's more the "My name is ___" kind of introductions. Something about the delivery is always a little awkward.

If Elaine rolled up and did something, then introduced herself after we'd gotten used to the idea that Veep is in this, then that's one thing. But the casual stroll up and "my name is Comic Book Character," it all feels a little cheesy.

It's like the superhero landing of obscure characters introductions. You can meet Sam Wilson in Cap2 and have no idea he's a superhero until he shows up with the wing suit that they've kind of built toward. That feels proper. You look up the silly images after and realize he has a huge history. When someone says "you thought I was a new character, but really I'm Comic Book Character!" it's kind of cringy. You have to look it up after because it's so unnatural.
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Beat40
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In reply to rhutton125 • 2:30p, 4/19/21
rhutton125 said:
I think it's more the "My name is ___" kind of introductions. Something about the delivery is always a little awkward.

If Elaine rolled up and did something, then introduced herself after we'd gotten used to the idea that Veep is in this, then that's one thing. But the casual stroll up and "my name is Comic Book Character," it all feels a little cheesy.

It's like the superhero landing of obscure characters introductions. You can meet Sam Wilson in Cap2 and have no idea he's a superhero until he shows up with the wing suit that they've kind of built toward. That feels proper. You look up the silly images after and realize he has a huge history. When someone says "you thought I was a new character, but really I'm Comic Book Character!" it's kind of cringy. You have to look it up after because it's so unnatural.


I definitely agree with you that the way she was introduced is hard for the casual fan that knows nothing about her. I definitely don't and haven't done any additional looking yet.

If the rumors are true that she's in Black Widow, this introduction makes much more sense. Guess we'll have to wait and see on that one.

I do wish they could have done one little reshoot to at least give us a hint at who she is.

I'm not disagreeing with you or Moore that the intro to her character is weird for the non-casual fan. It was for me too.

I am more disagreeing with Moore that Marvel isnt trying to expand to the casual fan. I think they've done an amazing job expanding their universe to the casual fan and this one minor character in a TV show isn't an example of Marvel sticking with the hardcore fans only.

Edit to say that I know Moore is talking about this show only. Even more to my point is I'm a casual Marvel fan and I didn't even know who Isaiah Bradley was before he was introduced - I had no idea of his backstory. They fleshed him out and I think they'll eventually flesh out the other character too.
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YouBet
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2:54p, 4/19/21
AG
For me, It's not that I don't know who she is that bothers me. That has happened numerous times throughout these movies and shows. I had no idea who Batroc was along with several other D list characters along the way. Didn't care.

I think I was specifically thrown out of the moment with how her character was introduced and how she acted. It just didn't fit to me at all to have Dreyfuss show up out of the blue and play an over the top joking character like I've seen her play in other shows. Jarring is the only word I can settle on to describe that scene.

Anyways, I doubt it will be a big deal in grand scheme of things. I'll get over it.
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Jugstore Cowboy
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In reply to MooreTrucker • 4:34p, 4/19/21
AG

Quote:
That's fine if they don't want to expand their audience to the more casual fan
I sure hope Marvel can find a way to expand it's viewership to more casual fans beyond hardcore comic book collectors! <dispatch from TexAgs alternate universe>

This is like me reading the Mandalorian threads, and realizing the hardcore fans knew more about certain characters than I did just from watching the show. Did that take anything away from my viewing of the show? Not at all. I just don't read any of the hype sites or much message board discussion until I've actually watched the show, if I'm interested.

Marvel changes the characters up so much, that it's not like comic book readers know anything for sure. This isn't a Game of Thrones situation where the readers think they know exactly what's coming up.

It is fun for me some times to look up and read about some of the secondary characters. For example, Wandavision got me looking up some 80's Avengers and West Coast Avengers comic storylines. That, in turn, had me fresh on John Walker by the time I got into Falcon and Winter Soldier. And even still, the characters and storylines are changed enough that it's still a surprise to see how they adapt him and condense the theme of his character arc. It's part of the fun of seeing a massive, multimedia character universe adapted to live action.
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W
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8:50p, 4/19/21
AG
finally watched episode 5. Glad to see an hour long episode.

Walker got in his shots before giving up the shield. That was an awesome fight scene. If he's in episode 6 I hope he takes out Karli. Also hope Zemo escapes from the Wakandans.

I like that Sam was not discouraged by Isaish's point of view. Sam is still optimistic and a bit cautious moving forward. His fights won't be easy without the serum.

not sure what's going on with Sharon. Thought she would have a larger role in the series

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W
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8:54p, 4/19/21
AG
and regarding the Winter Soldier...perhaps there's some major character development coming in the finale, but the U.S. Agent seems the #2 person / character in the series behind Sam (#1)
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double aught
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In reply to W • 8:55p, 4/19/21
AG
W said:
His fights won't be easy without the serum.
My guess is that his new Wakandan suit will help with this.
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Batzarro
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9:06p, 4/19/21
AG
I agree and appreciate your posts W.
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dave94
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In reply to W • 9:16p, 4/19/21
AG
W said:
and regarding the Winter Soldier...perhaps there's some major character development coming in the finale, but the U.S. Agent seems the #2 person / character in the series behind Sam (#1)


I felt like Bucky was the focus for most of the beginning episodes and now Sam has taken front and center.

Walker's gotten some good development, but I don't think he's anything more than 2 behind the title characters' 1a and 1b
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Madmarttigan
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In reply to double aught • 10:51p, 4/19/21
AG
double aught said:
W said:
His fights won't be easy without the serum.
My guess is that his new Wakandan suit will help with this.


Probably going to be made out of vibranium or have some kind of power like black panthers armor to absorb and dish out energy.
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Jugstore Cowboy
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In reply to Madmarttigan • 11:55p, 4/19/21
AG
I really thought it was just going to be another set of wings until Sam opened the case and you saw the look on Mackie's face.
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Fat Bib Fortuna
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In reply to W • 6:43a, 4/20/21
W said:


not sure what's going on with Sharon. Thought she would have a larger role in the series Hope she takes a shower in the season finale.

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Beat40
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In reply to Jugstore Cowboy • 7:36a, 4/20/21
Harry Lime said:
I really thought it was just going to be another set of wings until Sam opened the case and you saw the look on Mackie's face.


I think it's a powered suit with wings.
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jeffk
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7:44a, 4/20/21
AG
It's the Black Panther suit with wings stitched onto it. Boom! Captain Falcon-Panther!
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redline248
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8:33a, 4/20/21
AG
I hope it is wings so he really can be Black Falcon.
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Fat Bib Fortuna
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In reply to Beat40 • 8:40a, 4/20/21
Beat40 said:
Harry Lime said:
I really thought it was just going to be another set of wings until Sam opened the case and you saw the look on Mackie's face.


I think it's a powered suit with wings.
Say it ain't so, Sam.

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Fat Bib Fortuna
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In reply to Brian Earl Spilner • 8:42a, 4/20/21
Brian Earl Spilner said:
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Remember, covid screwed up the marvel release schedule. It has been rumored that Elaine Bennes is introduced in Black Widow. Falcon and winter soldier was then supposed to have been the first of the shows released last year. If true, that scene with Walker would've had more weight.
If anything, this makes the audience feel exactly like Walker did.

"Who the f is this?"
When she introduced herself, he should have stood up, pushed her really hard in the chest and yelled "GET OUT!"
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