Entertainment
Sponsored by

**The Falcon and the Winter Soldier Discussion Thread**

119,685 Views | 1228 Replies | Last: 4 yr ago by PatAg
Saxsoon
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
9:04p, 4/16/21
AG
I said damn

https://www.reddit.com/r/marvelstudios/comments/msdrqx/hidden_meaning_behind_the_painting_we_see_with/

This is some incredible insight into a painting seen with Sharon.


Quote:
But the main reason the painting was shunned by the European nobility at the time, happens to be the same reason I bring up the history of this painting and how it ties into the themes of the Falcon and the Winter Solider. Gericault's decision to feature a black man at the apex of the painting and in the most heroic position was something that Europe was not ready for in one of their great paintings, Gericault showed the remaining men working together with a sense of hope when a ship is spotted in the distance, and a strong black man as their leader waving a flag to help the men be seen. While also holding a white mans hand in friendship and comradery. The painting would not be sold or displayed because of this during Gericault's lifetime, and he would die penniless at the age of 32 unrecognized as a Master.

Today however the Raft of the Medusa is recognized as a masterpiece and is displayed proudly at the Louvre. And Gericault is considered one of the greatest artists in history.
Reply Quote
8
Madmarttigan
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Lathspell • 9:09p, 4/16/21
AG
Wow you just hit the nail on the head. I remember walking out of end game thinking it should have gone to Bucky and now I'm rooting for Sam.

Bravo sir

Also Marvel continues to mostly suck with villains besides Loki and Thanos. Fun show but me not giving a crap about the flag smashers has kept it from being great. Same as Wandavision with a meh ending and villain.
Reply Quote
1
1 edit
Brian Earl Spilner
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Dro07 • 9:17p, 4/16/21
AG
You mean Captain Falcon.

FALCON PUUUNCH!!!
Reply Quote
13
awall11
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Lathspell • 9:24p, 4/16/21
AG
DallasTeleAg said:
I think it's stupid that anyone can throw the shield like that. It should require a super soldier to do that.

In fairness, it doesn't obey the laws of physics at all...
Reply Quote
12
Dro07
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Brian Earl Spilner • 9:33p, 4/16/21
AG
Oh man that's something I haven't heard in a while
Reply Quote
3
MooreTrucker
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
10:17p, 4/16/21
AG
I liked it. I could do without the Bradley/race stuff, but that's 2021 so it makes sense with a black possible-Cap it's gonna have to come up.

I like the Sam/Bucky interaction, becoming friends...er, partners....er, co-workers. And the flirting with the sister stuff cracked me up.

I liked the training sequence, but it confused me quite a bit. When Sam and Bucky are talking both are throwing, hitting trees, and catching the shield with ease. But then suddenly Sam is training and can't seem to catch it anymore and was nearly decapitated by it. What did I miss?

Oh, and it's pretty easy to NOT be spoiled by the internet stuff. A) Don't read it, and B) don't believe it.
Reply Quote
5
Saxsoon
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to MooreTrucker • 10:23p, 4/16/21
AG
MooreTrucker said:
I liked it. I could do without the Bradley/race stuff, but that's 2021 so it makes sense with a black possible-Cap it's gonna have to come up.

I like the Sam/Bucky interaction, becoming friends...er, partners....er, co-workers. And the flirting with the sister stuff cracked me up.

I liked the training sequence, but it confused me quite a bit. When Sam and Bucky are talking both are throwing, hitting trees, and catching the shield with ease. But then suddenly Sam is training and can't seem to catch it anymore and was nearly decapitated by it. What did I miss?

Oh, and it's pretty easy to NOT be spoiled by the internet stuff. A) Don't read it, and B) don't believe it.
Those seemed to be light throwing compared to the training montage we got.
Reply Quote
1
TCTTS
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
11:12p, 4/16/21
AG
Reply Quote
israeliag
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Fat Bib Fortuna • 11:20p, 4/16/21
AG
Fat Bib Fortuna said:

I really like the stuff back in Sam's hometown, especially with Bucky's involvement. You have to know who you're fighting for, who is worth protecting. If all you're dealing with is military guys and politicians with their own agendas, you'll absolutely end up bitter like Isaiah. You fight for the good people, the ones you care about, the ones who will all turn out to help a neighbor in need.


There's a contrast, too, between who Sam is fighting for, and who Walker proclaimed he was fighting for and taking directions from in his hearing.
Reply Quote
5
double aught
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Fat Bib Fortuna • 12:54a, 4/17/21
AG
Fat Bib Fortuna said:
The box Sam opens has a framed, autographed 8x10 of T'Challa that says "Sam, keep your feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars!"
Ok. This silliness got me.
Reply Quote
6
Beat40
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
1:49a, 4/17/21
This episode is exactly what I was looking forward to watching!

Sure, I think the show could use a stronger villain other than the flag smashers, but man, seeing Bucky and Sam together is really what I wanted from this show.

I liked seeing Sam and Bucky reconcile in a way and thought Sam's advice to help Bucky out was really good. I liked Bucky Being able to be honest with Sam. I liked seeing Sam struggle with the shield and his role in it's legacy. This what I wanted from this show - to see Sam and Bucky interact and to see them both grow after the events of Endgame.

Hoping for a strong end to this series!
Reply Quote
10
Beat40
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
7:46a, 4/17/21
Also:



Reply Quote
18
1 edit
Cinco Ranch Aggie
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
8:05a, 4/17/21
AG
Regarding internet hype on this show, I simply don't look at any sites that put that stuff out, and generally on about Wednesday each week, I avoid this thread like the plague.

The Flag Smashers are a weak villain group. We had a friend over last night while we were watching who has seen absolutely none of the MCU so had no idea who anyone really is. I had to explain some things, and when I got to the Flag Smashers, I said they were pissed off that the world was ignoring the people who did not go away after all those who did go away suddenly returned. I'm not even really sure that is accurate, which emphasizes how poorly they and what they want is written.

Speaking of writing, the show has done a fantastic job on most of its characters. Ep 5 was very strong in this between Bucky and Sam. The "working on a fishing boat" comment does a disservice to what was really going on there IMO. A lot has already been mentioned, such as showing what Sam is really fighting for, but also you see a real coming together as friends between Bucky and Sam. Someone posted above an altered series title, "Falcon and the Brother In Law" - that was pretty much what I was thinking when Bucky first flirted with Sarah. I also generally like John Walker's role in this show. He clearly is no Captain America (I must have missed him actually taking the serum as opposed to just putting the vial in his pocket). But his words in front of the Senate committee, I thought that was a strong scene showing his betrayal at the people he actually worked for. Better still was the scene with him talking with his partner's family.

If Sharon is the Power Broker, I suspect her aunt is coming back from the grave to kick her ass.
Reply Quote
1
texasaggie04
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Fightin TX Aggie • 9:31a, 4/17/21
AG
Fightin TX Aggie said:
GiveEmHellBill said:
The Dora Milaje handed Zemo over to The Raft. Did not see that coming. Was pretty convinced they were going to take him back to Wakanda and kill him. As far as comic book characters not dying in these movies, I was pretty sure that the Wakandans would kill the man who assassinated their king.

But, now that he is instead being imprisoned on The Raft......I doubt we've seen the last of him.
That is interesting. Sort of weird that he wasn't already imprisoned in the Raft, to be honest.

I didn't think Wakanda would execute him necessarily, but I am sure Wakanda has a secure prison.

I mean, it was T'Challa that captured & kept Zemo from killing himself at the end of CACW.

I could be wrong, but I think the Raft was originally just meant as a prison for powered individuals? So maybe Zemo wasn't there because he was just a regular guy. (Also, for plot purposes for this show)
Reply Quote
MooreTrucker
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
9:46a, 4/17/21
AG
The Raft is that floating prison where Falcon, AntMan, etc. ended up at the end of Civil War, right?

That's one of those things that gets referred to in a series like this that someone who's not familiar with it all won't understand. Hell, I've seen all the movies and didn't know what they were talking about until I remembered it later.
Reply Quote
3
Batzarro
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to texasaggie04 • 10:10a, 4/17/21
AG
texasaggie04 said:
Fightin TX Aggie said:
GiveEmHellBill said:
The Dora Milaje handed Zemo over to The Raft. Did not see that coming. Was pretty convinced they were going to take him back to Wakanda and kill him. As far as comic book characters not dying in these movies, I was pretty sure that the Wakandans would kill the man who assassinated their king.

But, now that he is instead being imprisoned on The Raft......I doubt we've seen the last of him.
That is interesting. Sort of weird that he wasn't already imprisoned in the Raft, to be honest.

I didn't think Wakanda would execute him necessarily, but I am sure Wakanda has a secure prison.

I mean, it was T'Challa that captured & kept Zemo from killing himself at the end of CACW.

I could be wrong, but I think the Raft was originally just meant as a prison for powered individuals? So maybe Zemo wasn't there because he was just a regular guy. (Also, for plot purposes for this show)


Also Zemo was an international criminal, did not just victimize Wakanda.
Reply Quote
double aught
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to FightinTexasAg15 • 10:26a, 4/17/21
AG
FightinTexasAg15 said:
So this episode Bucky and Sam worked on their friend-ship

Reply Quote
14
2 edits
fig96
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
11:04a, 4/17/21
AG
I really enjoyed this ep, agreed with others that the Flag Smashers aren't particularly compelling villains (maybe somewhat due to the potential rewrites) but Walker vs Sam and Bucky totally makes up for it.

Walker is that villain you love to hate and I'm really enjoying the internal struggles of all these characters.
Reply Quote
2
mazag08
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
11:22a, 4/17/21
AG
I actually feel bad for Walker. He's a meathead who is doing what he thinks is right based on how he was trained and his war experiences. He should have never been put in the position of Captain America and wasn't ready for the emotional tug of war that comes with it.
Reply Quote
13
Saxsoon
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
11:59a, 4/17/21
AG
Wyatt Russell is ****ing killing it, that Senate hearing was great

Into the Ringerverse is a spin off of Binge Mode after Concepcion left. Van Lathan has been hosting an instant reaction after every episode and Malory the following week does a deeper dive with a different guest. Really great stuff in both podcasts
Reply Quote
13
jeffk
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to mazag08 • 12:43p, 4/17/21
AG
mazag08 said:
I actually feel bad for Walker. He's a meathead who is doing what he thinks is right based on how he was trained and his war experiences. He should have never been put in the position of Captain America and wasn't ready for the emotional tug of war that comes with it.


Yeah, I feel similarly. He's obviously a great soldier within the confines/structure of the US military, but he was unprepared for the Cap role and whatever sort of rules of engagement that involves. He's got some scars and damage from his past experiences (maybe PTSD) and the serum/Battlestar's death pushed him over the edge. Now he's all rage and frustration and primed to be turned against the US govt by Hydra because he feels like he's been abandoned... which he had.

For all the complaints about the Flag Smashers (which are legitimate even if they got handicapped by script rewrites... even their name is dumb; you can't smash a flag, it's made of fabric), the show has done a good job of 1) setting up Sam as being the only one worthy of the shield while still confronting the tensions there and 2) setting up Walker as US Agent (or whatever they eventually make him) as a figurehead for Hydra.
Reply Quote
5
1 edit
jackie childs
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Saxsoon • 1:12p, 4/17/21
Saxsoon said:
Wyatt Russell is ****ing killing it, that Senate hearing was great

Into the Ringerverse is a spin off of Binge Mode after Concepcion left. Van Lathan has been hosting an instant reaction after every episode and Malory the following week does a deeper dive with a different guest. Really great stuff in both podcasts
yeah, i've been enjoying ringerverse too. still miss jason though
Reply Quote
Saxsoon
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to jackie childs • 1:18p, 4/17/21
AG
jackie childs said:
Saxsoon said:
Wyatt Russell is ****ing killing it, that Senate hearing was great

Into the Ringerverse is a spin off of Binge Mode after Concepcion left. Van Lathan has been hosting an instant reaction after every episode and Malory the following week does a deeper dive with a different guest. Really great stuff in both podcasts
yeah, i've been enjoying ringerverse too. still miss jason though


Yeah I wasn't sure how I felt about Van and Charles but I enjoy their energy. I do wish Malory had some more charismatic or consistent guests
Reply Quote
Saxsoon
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to jackie childs • 1:19p, 4/17/21
AG
Reply Quote
1 edit
DTP02
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
1:41p, 4/17/21
AG
I'm not a big fan of the racial tension surrounding the shield because in this universe it's really only stood as a symbol of unity. First, in fighting the Nazis, and second, in literally helping save the world a couple of times. Heck, they had a montage at the end of the Avengers playing off the theme explicitly. Now it's a symbol of oppression just, what, a few months later?

That said, I don't mind the insertion of the Isaiah Bradley character because we, the US govt that is, absolutely did experiment on our soldiers, black and white. If Cap hadn't been a capsicle, the DOD probably would have had him in a lab. And it makes sense that Bradley would be very bitter, especially given the racial inequality of his day. I just don't think that should be a significant factor in Sam's inner turmoil. I hope they're pointing to a scene in the finale where Bradley looks upon Sam holding the shield with pride.

But the thing that really holds me back from loving this show that I want to love because I really like Sam and Bucky, is the dang flag smashers.

Not only are they an uncompelling, nonsensical villain in general, but they keep trying to make Karli out to be this naive innocent who just happens to kill innocent people. And Sam's willingness to easily look past that doesn't fit at all. He can't be torn about everything.

I don't know if the flag smashers would have worked with the original plotline or not, but every time they are on screen in this one it just takes me out of the scene and irritates me.
Reply Quote
7
fig96
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
2:53p, 4/17/21
AG
Also, forgot to mention that but the scene with Walker and our surprise new character after the Senate hearing was gold.
Reply Quote
4
Cinco Ranch Aggie
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to fig96 • 3:00p, 4/17/21
AG
fig96 said:
Also, forgot to mention that but the scene with Walker and our surprise new character after the Senate hearing was gold.
This kind of gold?

Reply Quote
18
fig96
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Cinco Ranch Aggie • 3:52p, 4/17/21
AG
My phrasing was not coincidental
Reply Quote
1
Fightin TX Aggie
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
4:23p, 4/17/21
AG
The thing about the racism angle and whether America is ready for a black man to carry the shield is that literally no fan of Marvel that I've ever heard thinks a black man should not carry the shield. Some thought Cap should pass it to Bucky because of their great friendship and because he is an actual super soldier, but most people were completely cool with Sam as the next Cap.

Basically, America is completely cool with a black Captain America, and honestly that should not surprise anyone.

Reply Quote
15
Jugstore Cowboy
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Fightin TX Aggie • 5:41p, 4/17/21
AG

Quote:
The thing about the racism angle and whether America is ready for a black man to carry the shield is that literally no fan of Marvel that I've ever heard thinks a black man should not carry the shield.
A video TC posted showed that the question was literally straight out of a Captain America comic book storyline.

The central point wasn't whether Marvel fans would accept Sam as Cap, but whether Sam was ready to pick up the shield and all it represents. The whole point of the Jonathan Walker storyline, in the comics as well, is that not everyone is right for what the shield represents. Kind of like Thor's hammer and who's worthy of wielding it. It was an extremely personal thing for Sam, both out of his respect for Steve, and for what the shield represents as a larger symbol - even to someone like Isaiah.

Some of the race stuff felt a bit on the nose, but it would almost be crazy for them not to address it in some way after the past year. Not including race - in some way - right now would be like having Jack Bauer go after an auto theft ring and pretend terrorists didn't exist in 2001 or 2002. Other crime shows at the time did exactly that, and became imminently forgettable. It's in the news all the time and being talked about in elementary schools. And Sam answered his own question perfectly, concluding that "America" isn't just the politicians or the brass, it's his family and neighbors and friends. And so he starts training w/ the shield. As a conservative, that's something I get.

Anyway, I agree w/ those who might've found some of the earlier action scenes to be a tad tedious, if not boring. But episode 5 ended in a great way to balance that out with more character development and depth.

Also thought Zemo turned out to be a surprisingly good character and three dimensional villain. Hope we see him again.

*Sorry for the absurd length of this post; I'm just caught up and avoided ALL spoilers and chatter until now.
Reply Quote
12
1 edit
Brian Earl Spilner
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
6:08p, 4/17/21
AG
I think someone mentioned it before, but I think we're absolutely intended to feel conflicted about Walker.

My take is he will redeem himself either right at the end of the finale, in a subsequent movie, or in S2, if there is one.

He'll be with the good guys eventually. (And I say this without knowing the history of the character.)
Reply Quote
1
BigC
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Fat Bib Fortuna • 6:13p, 4/17/21
AG
Fat Bib Fortuna said:
The box Sam opens has a framed, autographed 8x10 of T'Challa that says "Sam, keep your feet on the ground and keep reaching for the stars!"
You win the internet for today.
Reply Quote
TCTTS
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to Fightin TX Aggie • 6:14p, 4/17/21
AG
Fightin TX Aggie said:
The thing about the racism angle and whether America is ready for a black man to carry the shield is that literally no fan of Marvel that I've ever heard thinks a black man should not carry the shield. Some thought Cap should pass it to Bucky because of their great friendship and because he is an actual super soldier, but most people were completely cool with Sam as the next Cap.

Basically, America is completely cool with a black Captain America, and honestly that should not surprise anyone.

Something I will never understand is when people assume that a single character or characters speak for the filmmakers, a large swath of the viewing public, or society as a whole.

Isaiah Bradley is ONE VOICE on this show. And sure, he likely speaks for a sizable portion of the black community, but in-show, his opinions are CLEARLY being presented as ONE side of the argument, with Sam at the CENTER of that argument, forced to choose a path. I mean, this is story-telling 101. The hero is presented with multiple paths, is presented with multiple, fun-house mirrors of himself (Bradley, Walker, Bucky, etc), each with their own philosophies on the shield and what Sam should do with it.

- We've heard versions of, "Take the shield! It's yours!" (the THESIS).

- We've heard versions of, "Don't take the shield! It's corrupt/mine!" (the ANTI-THESIS).

- Episode six will then see the SYNTHESIS, in which Sam forges his OWN path - a NEW way - using the info he learned, and the tools he collected, in the thesis and anti-thesis.

You're complaining as if the show endorsed Bradley's take in the end, when it's now beyond obvious that Sam is choosing to KEEP the shield, just on his OWN terms, with his OWN approach/philosophies.

As Harry Lime so eloquently explains above, the whole point of the show is to examine whether SAM is ready, not whether WE are.
Reply Quote
16
4 edits
Fightin TX Aggie
User Profile
Private Message
Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to TCTTS • 8:01p, 4/17/21
AG
Quote:
You're complaining as if the show endorsed Bradley's take in the end, when it's now beyond obvious that Sam is choosing to KEEP the shield, just on his OWN terms, with his OWN approach/philosophies.
100% not what I'm doing. You're assigning a point of view to me that I haven't expressed.

If you want to know what I think the writers were saying, check out my post above on all the various characters.
Reply Quote
2
Lathspell
User Profile Ignore User Stop Ignoring
How long do you want to ignore this user?
24 hours One week Permanently Cancel
In reply to TCTTS • 9:20p, 4/17/21
AG
TCTTS said:

As Harry Lime so eloquently explains above, the whole point of the show is to examine whether SAM is ready, not whether WE are.
Agree and disagree. I believe the point is to examine whether Sam is ready with the ultimate purpose to convince the audience it is okay for us to accept this other person as Captain America.

I personally could not care less what race that person is, unless that person makes the Captain America character completely about race. Whoever it turned out to be, I just wanted it to feel earned; deserved. As I mentioned earlier, I feel like this show is doing that for Sam.

At this point, I don't feel like anyone else other than Bradley has made it all about race. However, I wish the writers of the show would contrast him to Steve Rodgers. Our country turned on him as well, but he did not choose to disappear into exile. He stayed on the sidelines to appear when we needed him.

Was Bradley dealt a crappy deal? Of course. No one would dispute that, nor the obvious racial issues he dealt with in his youth. However, as a black super soldier, he could have decided not to let those hardships defeat him and instead fight to become a symbol of his cause. It if killed him to do so, then so be it. At least he wouldn't have let it defeat him.

Summed up perfectly:
Quote:
"I wish it need not have happened in my time," said Frodo.

"So do I," said Gandalf, "and so do all who live to see such times. But that is not for them to decide. All we have to decide is what to do with the time that is given us."
Reply Quote
8
 
×
subscribe Verify your student status
See Subscription Benefits
Trial only available to users who have never subscribed or participated in a previous trial.