This is a good show.
**The Falcon and the Winter Soldier Discussion Thread**
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Last: 4 yr ago by PatAg
Sharon Carter has to be the Power Broker, right?
I'm watching Captain America The First Avenger as a palate cleanser after that episode.
STOP CALLING HIM WALKER!!!.
He's OUR Captain America.
He's OUR Captain America.
#notmycaptainBatzarro said:
STOP CALLING HIM WALKER!!!.
He's OUR Captain America.
I find the show's themes interesting and worth exploring for sure, but four episodes in and I'm honestly just flat out bored. I get what they're going for, and I really like it on paper, but something about the execution just isn't quite working for me. The pacing... the rhythm of it... the tone... something feels off that I can't put my finger on. All I know is that I find myself checking my phone multiple times per episode, and constantly looking to see how much time's left. Apparently episode five is the best of the series, and I'm definitely still looking forward to it, but overall, I'm also to the point where I'm kind of over this show and ready for Loki.
All that said, I'm loving everything Zemo is bringing to the table. My season MVP so far, no question.
The fighting stops because Walker stops to go check out his buddy. He literally stops fighting and the others watch him. The flagsmashers at that point know he's taken the serum, and I'm sure they can feel his rage building. They realize they f'ed up and it's time to get out of there.CoachRTM said:
The only thing that made me do the Zemo head lean....
Everyone's having this big battle where they're trying to kill each other, and one of them kills somebody and the whole fight stops (insert record-scratch noise) and everyone looks around with the "what did you just do?" expression.
imjustsayin said:
Finally placed him... John walker is "Zuke" from 21 Jump Street!!?q=50&fit=crop&w=740&h=370
Kurt Russell's son... Star Lords brother
So, there is a lot I like about this show, particularly Bucky's development and Zemo's performance. I liked seeing "Captain America" go insane. I think they haven't developed Sam at the level of Bucky more because I think they're clearly setting him up to take the mantle of Capitan America, in some form or fashion. I think they're trying to get us to think Sam's character may not be Steve's, but it's close.
Reading your post, I'm wondering if what you're not able to put your finger on is the fact that, at least to date, the point of the show has been to stop the Flagsmashers from terrorizing and creating super soldiers. That's basically it. And we've taken 4 episodes to get to the point where the conflict is starting to come together. We honestly probably could have had this episode as episode 3 and added some more depth to the plot beside a terrorist/revolutionary group trying to creat super soldiers in order to help the world.
I think what we're not getting in this show, and Wandavision as well, is usually in a Marvel movie, there is the one main plot line, but there is also the second plot line that gets fleshed out at the same time. Both Wandavision and TF&WS have really focused on one major plot line and not developed a secondary that arches the series. The secondary is usually resolved within an episode.
I actually think this speaks to modern TV. The shows we've come to watch have multiple stories going on at one time and while you're watching one story unfold, your brain is trying to figure out the other story line or at least figure out how the one you're watching figures into the other. I think sometimes we don't get that secondary arc and our brains get bored - I've certainly been guilty of that. These two MCU shows haven't done that to date. I doubt Loki will do so either.
To be clear, I've loved both Wandavision and TF&WS. TF&WS is such mindless action for me - it's fun to watch.
Reading your post, I'm wondering if what you're not able to put your finger on is the fact that, at least to date, the point of the show has been to stop the Flagsmashers from terrorizing and creating super soldiers. That's basically it. And we've taken 4 episodes to get to the point where the conflict is starting to come together. We honestly probably could have had this episode as episode 3 and added some more depth to the plot beside a terrorist/revolutionary group trying to creat super soldiers in order to help the world.
I think what we're not getting in this show, and Wandavision as well, is usually in a Marvel movie, there is the one main plot line, but there is also the second plot line that gets fleshed out at the same time. Both Wandavision and TF&WS have really focused on one major plot line and not developed a secondary that arches the series. The secondary is usually resolved within an episode.
I actually think this speaks to modern TV. The shows we've come to watch have multiple stories going on at one time and while you're watching one story unfold, your brain is trying to figure out the other story line or at least figure out how the one you're watching figures into the other. I think sometimes we don't get that secondary arc and our brains get bored - I've certainly been guilty of that. These two MCU shows haven't done that to date. I doubt Loki will do so either.
To be clear, I've loved both Wandavision and TF&WS. TF&WS is such mindless action for me - it's fun to watch.
You're 100% spot on. Great call. I said the exact same thing about The Mandalorian, but it was way easier to identify there, since it was literally the relatively simple and straightforward Mando/Grogu mission and nothing else. We almost never cut away from that story to another plot line/character, and the same, basic thing is now happening here, it's just a more complex plot. The shows I love the most - Succession, Better Call Saul, Game of Thrones, etc - are constantly spinning four or five plates at once, always cutting back and forth between them. So when it's literally just ONE story like this, I find it inherently more tedious, I guess. Not that I *need* a lot of stuff to be happening because of some short attention span or whatever, I just find shows that juggle multiple stories at once to be far more interesting and rewarding overall.
This is what I've basically come up with: the point is to stop the Flag Smashers from creating super soldiers so they don't continue to terrorize. That's pretty much the plot.rhutton125 said:
Scattershooting:
- Personally, I didn't take Sarah's comment to mean race. I thought it meant what we've seen of her so far: a struggling, lower-class, blue-collar worker who's trying to provide for her family and feels like the government doesn't care. The system is failing the people like her, and these are the kind of people the Flag Smashers are trying to help.
- Episode finished strong. Lemar was likable. Walker going ape**** was inevitable. But man, what a way to go about it.
- Overall: I'm still struggling with this show. We're 2/3 through and I feel like still I don't really know what it's about yet. It's not really an effective political thriller because the GRC and the Power Broker are faceless entities whose actions we're only told about. The Flag Smashers don't seem organized or charismatic enough to have attracted a following, or to pull off these heists. We'll get something intriguing like the 1950s experimental black super soldier but we haven't really circled back to that in any important way.
It almost feels like a Netflix MCU show. I know this thing has a big budget, but it doesn't always feel like it. It's mostly people expositing while traveling, and then punching each other in a hallway or shipyard or on a semi on a CGI road. Let's free the bad guy because we need him, oh no he got away.
It's like you've got the ingredients to be a successor to CA: Winter Soldier, but it hasn't really come together at all yet. And it's only got about 100 minutes left to do so in a satisfying way..
Edit: I'm hoping I'm wrong on this. Maybe it's taking its time and isn't wearing all its themes on its sleeve for all to see in every single scene. I'm just worried we'll get through the next 2 hours and not know that much more about Bucky and Sam, and Zemo and Sharon were just swinging through to fill a generic role, and the Power Broker is revealed to be someone who will just appear in later things or something like that.
Here's the problem, there are 3 groups going after one group with differing motivations. The group of Walker and Hoskins is mean to mainly foil Sam and Bucky. This other group - the Power Broker, the only motivation is that the Flag Smashers stole from him/her. It's a problem to me because the third group is taking away from what Sam and Bucky's stated goal is, which is to stop super soldiers from being created.
If they know the Power Broker highered someone to remake the serum, shouldn't Sam and Bucky be at least beginning to working their way toward who the Power Broker is to stop future serum from being made? That's Ben the formula of the movies - stop the immediate threat while working your way to the larger threat.
That's a surprisingly quick turn for you. Am I wrong in thinking you've said multiple times you find yourself so excited that you stay up late to watch it?
I absolutely loved the second episode, and was amped after it, but so far it's been downhill from there for me. I stayed up last week, but then didn't stay up this week, and just now got around to watching it.
I get what you're saying. I don't mind the straightforward missions and stories, it just makes it feel more drawn out.TCTTS said:
You're 100% spot on. Great call. I said the exact same thing about The Mandalorian, but it was way easier to identify there, since it was literally the relatively simple and straightforward Mando/Grogu mission and nothing else. We almost never cut away from that story to another plot line/character, and the same, basic thing is now happening here, it's just a more complex plot. The shows I love the most - Succession, Better Call Saul, Game of Thrones, etc - are constantly spinning four or five plates at once, always cutting back and forth between them. So when it's literally just ONE story like this, I find it inherently more tedious, I guess. Not that I *need* a lot of stuff to be happening because of some short attention span or whatever, I just find shows that juggle multiple stories at once to be far more interesting and rewarding overall.
The thing is, I think Marvel actually undercut Bucky and Sam's goal of stopping super soldiers from being created by inserting the Power Broker offshoot. Seems to me like Bucky and Sam would have started working their way toward taking the Power Broker down as the larger while handling the immediate threat of the Flag Smashers.
I think the one thing in this show that has bugged me is that Sam and Bucky are the title characters of the show, and aside from episode 1 and some of episode 2, we've spent a lot more time developing Karli, Walker, and Zeno than we have Bucky and Sam. We've hardly developed Sam at all. To me, it's making them seem less and less like the lead of the show. I feel they both have been too reactionary and not driving the plot forward nearly as much.
Agreed.
Interestingly, this was my favorite episode.
Yeah, I liked all the dynamics and some of the action, but another thing it boils down to for me is that I could not care less about Karli and the Flag-Smashers. I like the *idea* of them, and their general plight, I guess, but to me they're just not even remotely compelling, on screen, as the thing that the entire series is revolving around.
Agreed on Carli and the flagsmashers. Just don't care about them, was hoping Zemo would finish her off.
This sums up my feelings as well. Action is great. I really enjoy the Sam and Bucky dynamic. Zemo has been terrific, he's holding this whole show together in my opinion.TCTTS said:
Yeah, I liked all the dynamics and some of the action, but another thing it boils down to for me is that I could not care less about Karli and the Flag-Smashers. I like the *idea* of them, and their general plight, I guess, but to me they're just not even remotely compelling, on screen, as the thing that the entire series is revolving around.
I don't think Walker and Carli are fleshed out characters, they both feel like they're about 50% there, maybe less. They've taken away a lot of the development of the stories for both Sam and Bucky, what they were laying out at the beginning seems to have disappeared in favor of a much more shallow story. This is where superhero stories have the weakest result, when they overcomplicate the plot by having too many villains vs having a specific foil for the protagonists, that guy should be Zemo. Bringing in the implications from Wakanda I really liked in this episode.
They are focusing on why Walker isn't Steve, they really should be focusing on why Sam and Bucky aren't Steve and their struggles with that. Walker is unnecessary. Carli and the flagsmashers on paper present an interesting idea, the people whose lives somehow improved after the snap, and were then marginalized again afterward. But in practice I don't care because they are willing to harm completely innocent people for their righteous cause, boring, there's no moral high ground here, only a dead end.
All that said this is a fun show, I really enjoy it.
Anyone else of the opinion that Sharon is the Power Broker? It doesn't feel like she's just connected to me, she also pulling the strings.
I think you all have unearthed what isn't working for me. "Stopping more super soldiers from being made" isn't a compelling plot to me at all... especially for a show that claimed to be about Cap's successor, or being a black superhero, or post-Snap politics, or Bucky finding his way in this new world.
It's the least interesting aspect of the show to me, by far. The next is post-Snap politics, which would be way more interesting if we had a General Ross or someone to represent things. Instead it's exposition about people being forgotten by the world. Faceless problems caused by a faceless government entity, and we're really only told about it, not shown.
I think too much time has gone to the Flag Smashers and serum talk, and not enough time to Sam, Bucky, Zemo or Walker. The small character scenes for them all have been by far the best. Walker in the locker room, Bucky in Wakanda, Sam and Bucky with the therapist. But the A to B to C adventures of tracking down the Flag Smashers, or why they keep fighting, has been remarkably uninteresting to me.
It's the least interesting aspect of the show to me, by far. The next is post-Snap politics, which would be way more interesting if we had a General Ross or someone to represent things. Instead it's exposition about people being forgotten by the world. Faceless problems caused by a faceless government entity, and we're really only told about it, not shown.
I think too much time has gone to the Flag Smashers and serum talk, and not enough time to Sam, Bucky, Zemo or Walker. The small character scenes for them all have been by far the best. Walker in the locker room, Bucky in Wakanda, Sam and Bucky with the therapist. But the A to B to C adventures of tracking down the Flag Smashers, or why they keep fighting, has been remarkably uninteresting to me.
Side note... I wonder if this will all be improved in a binge. Episode 1 felt very disconnected from episode 2, and 2 from 3 & 4. Episode 1 was so concerned with the Asian father, Sam's sister, Torres, the psychiatrist - and that got scrapped pretty fast for Walker, who was basically not in episode 3, etc.
I enjoyed WV even more when I binged it with a friend, and I suspect that may help gloss over some of the warts I'm seeing here when we go week to week. Each week I have to try and remember why I care about stopping the Flag Smashers. In one sitting, I may be able to just roll with it.
I enjoyed WV even more when I binged it with a friend, and I suspect that may help gloss over some of the warts I'm seeing here when we go week to week. Each week I have to try and remember why I care about stopping the Flag Smashers. In one sitting, I may be able to just roll with it.
I think the point of this show is that, after end game, a bunch of people were like, "yeah I like falcon, but should he really get the shield?"
After 4 episodes of this, everyone is now saying, "Falcon better get that damn shield back."
After 4 episodes of this, everyone is now saying, "Falcon better get that damn shield back."
On another note, does anyone else feel Bucky's "underpowered" in this series compared to the movies?
In the movies he was a ****ing bad*** capable of taking on Cap, Black Widow, Falcon, Black Panther, etc damn near at the same time. Sure these Flag-breakers have taken the serum, but they don't have the training he's had, nor his arm! He should be able walk right through these Flag-whatever loosers.
In the movies he was a ****ing bad*** capable of taking on Cap, Black Widow, Falcon, Black Panther, etc damn near at the same time. Sure these Flag-breakers have taken the serum, but they don't have the training he's had, nor his arm! He should be able walk right through these Flag-whatever loosers.
FL_Ag1998 said:
On another note, does anyone else feel Bucky's "underpowered" in this series compared to the movies?
In the movies he was a ****ing bad*** capable of taking on Cap, Black Widow, Falcon, Black Panther, etc damn near at the same time. Sure these Flag-breakers have taken the serum, but they don't have the training he's had, nor his arm! He should be able walk right through these Flag-whatever loosers.
I think it's pretty clear that he's holding back because he's afraid of his power. At least that's how I've been seeing it
I believe that all the issues many of you are discussing are the direct result of a short, 6 episode run. There just isn't time to flesh certain things out. Walker, in particular, has really suffered in this regard. I wonder if we circle back to Bucky and the dad. Will the last episode basically be picking up the pieces?
Isn't that a part of his therapy agreement, not to hurt/kill anyone? Which is a part of his pardon agreement?Andyzipp said:FL_Ag1998 said:
On another note, does anyone else feel Bucky's "underpowered" in this series compared to the movies?
In the movies he was a ****ing bad*** capable of taking on Cap, Black Widow, Falcon, Black Panther, etc damn near at the same time. Sure these Flag-breakers have taken the serum, but they don't have the training he's had, nor his arm! He should be able walk right through these Flag-whatever loosers.
I think it's pretty clear that he's holding back because he's afraid of his power. At least that's how I've been seeing it
It seemed like in this past episode, some of that went out the window for a minute anyway.
I actually think it was explained in the show, not a "turn your brain off" thing.CoachRTM said:
The Avengers are exactly as strong as they need to be for the plot at any given time.
Just one of those things where you have to turn your brain off.
IIRC, that has been mentioned several times in this thread....Max Power said:
Anyone else of the opinion that Sharon is the Power Broker? It doesn't feel like she's just connected to me, she also pulling the strings.
I loved Sam's reaction as the pipe was bent and he realized that the serum had been taken.Beat40 said:The fighting stops because Walker stops to go check out his buddy. He literally stops fighting and the others watch him. The flagsmashers at that point know he's taken the serum, and I'm sure they can feel his rage building. They realize they f'ed up and it's time to get out of there.CoachRTM said:
The only thing that made me do the Zemo head lean....
Everyone's having this big battle where they're trying to kill each other, and one of them kills somebody and the whole fight stops (insert record-scratch noise) and everyone looks around with the "what did you just do?" expression.
"Oh ****"
Andyzipp said:FL_Ag1998 said:
On another note, does anyone else feel Bucky's "underpowered" in this series compared to the movies?
In the movies he was a ****ing bad*** capable of taking on Cap, Black Widow, Falcon, Black Panther, etc damn near at the same time. Sure these Flag-breakers have taken the serum, but they don't have the training he's had, nor his arm! He should be able walk right through these Flag-whatever loosers.
I think it's pretty clear that he's holding back because he's afraid of his power. At least that's how I've been seeing it
True, plus the promise he made in therapy like someone else mention. Just sucks.
It doesn't help that this was a terrible casting choice for this character.TCTTS said:
Yeah, I liked all the dynamics and some of the action, but another thing it boils down to for me is that I could not care less about Karli and the Flag-Smashers. I like the *idea* of them, and their general plight, I guess, but to me they're just not even remotely compelling, on screen, as the thing that the entire series is revolving around.
I'm sorry, but a short, freckled ginger girl with a British accent is completely wrong for a character that's supposed to be the leader of a group of Super Soldier revolutionaries. When she got shot by Zemo I got excited because I thought that this would be a great out-of-left-field plot point to kill her with two episodes left in the season. For a split second, I thought that we were on the verge of seeing a new antagonist emerge for the conclusion of the show.
Russell's Walker is unlikeable, but I'm loving his performance. This actress as Karli? She's unlikeable and I don't really care for her and hope they take her out soon.
rhutton125 said:
I think too much time has gone to the Flag Smashers and serum talk, and not enough time to Sam, Bucky, Zemo or Walker.
This is it for me. Karli and their team are getting a little too much air time.. They could spare us some of their conversations.
Honestly, they should just have an entire episode of Zemo dancing
Sharon is either the power broker, working for the power broker, or she is still CIA, and her being wanted is a cover. It would explain how she has access to satellites.
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