Apache said:

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It's not Ancient Greece, it's a woke, Hollywood version of Ancient Greece.

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Spoiler alert!

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Fify

Apples to oranges, but as food for thought, here are 2 threads from 2012-2013 for The Lone Range movie in which Johnny Depp went full "redface" to play Tonto. There are 2 posts that mention it being odd, but nobody is offended by it.

https://texags.com/forums/13/topics/2165518/replies
https://texags.com/forums/13/topics/2327072/replies/36116932

Reading those threads makes me miss Fast Fred.

Good lord - Charlton Heston once played Moses. Dudes used to play the part of women in plays. WTF cares about all of this crap.

Based on the trailer ratio, a lot of people.

ALL HAIL THE RATIO

TCTTS said:

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Blonde Coffee Beans said:

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veryfuller said:

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I don't think its us vs them. I am making a coherent argument to wait and see the movie before painting it with the culture war brush, while you and others are constantly bringing up side issues or mocking things about the movie (that turn out not to be true), then piling on when people just ask you to wait to see the movie before going on the culture war rants.

And then you mark those posters as liberals, which is honestly hysterical to me. Because we don't want to dump on a movie we haven't seen for reasons we don't know are true yet. And if that is obtuse, to want to see something for myself and come to my own conclusions without having it filtered through social media, commentators, reviewers, other posters on the thread, then I guess thats me. And you have moved me into "the other side" column and treat me as such in conversation on here.

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If you mean, wait until it hits streaming, then I agree with you. Initially I had this one down for theater but Hollywood and their agenda got in the way.

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So "Hollywood and their agenda" will keep you from spending money on a theatrical ticket, but won't stop you from giving your money to the same studio, via streaming subscription, just months later? Got it.

Never mind that Nolan is one of the least woke directors around, and cast the whitest blockbuster of the century just three years ago with Oppenheimer, a move that the left whined about for months?

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This keeps being a rebuttal when it doesn't matter. Most of the discourse I've seen on X frustrated or skeptical about Odyssey openly states that Nolan is a good director and has made some great movies, but that THIS project seems to have gone the woke direction. I haven't really seen anyone claiming that he has always made movies with this level of box-checking for the modern audience message.

TCTTS said:

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Apache said:

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I propose that anyone wound up about casting choices on the basis of ethnicity/race or sexual orientation WANTS to be wound up about it.

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I wouldn't say I'm "wound up", it just doesn't make any sense for a movie set in the ancient Greek world to feature the daughter of Zeus/Spartan woman to be black. Maybe Zeus is Black in Nolan's vision??

Just as it wouldn't make any sense to have a white/Asian woman portraying a sub-Saharan African queen 3000 years ago in an African Myth.

Reviews at this point appear to be pretty good, so I'll likely see it as I grew up reading Greek mythology.

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Zeus was a fictional god who posed as a swan to impregnate Helen's mother.

Helen herself then hatched from an egg her mother laid.

That is her official origin story.

To then ignore the fact that Helen hatched from an egg, while arguing that she shouldn't be black, is objectively one of the most ridiculous things this board has ever engaged in.

Never mind the fact that, again, The Odyssey is work of fiction/fantasy, set not in our world/history, but an alternate Earth universe in which gods and monsters not only existed, but drastically shaped the lives of men.

To that end, anyone arguing for "historical accuracy" is willfully ignorant and a hypocrite.

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Why do you think they cast her as black? Please give your honest opinion. To me, it is CLEARLY a diversity quota thing. A DEI hire. Do you honestly think they were sitting around using your logic of "well, technically she's being hatched from an egg, so we could make her any color really, as she is not the product of normal human intercourse, let's make her black!"...or do you think "we got raked over the coals for not having enough black people in the last few films so let's be careful to insert a few here" might be more likely?

Like, to you, is it POSSIBLE that it could be a pandering DEI choice? Or is it absurd to even entertain that?

I don't care that she is black personally...I mean, it's worthy of a slight eye roll, just given today;s environment...I just think it's funny for people to act like it's absurd or "extreme" to even entertain the notion.

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Never mind the fact that, again, The Odyssey is work of fiction/fantasy, set not in our world/history, but an alternate Earth universe in which gods and monsters not only existed, but drastically shaped the lives of men

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Incorrect. The setting of the Odyssey is in the ancient GREEK world on our Earth. The Greeks believed these gods & monsters existed, though we know it is fiction.

My point which you missed, is that is doesn't make sense to drop in a Black actress randomly into this Greek world if you are being consistent with worldbuilding. Just as it wouldn't make sense to have a bunch of Europeans or Asians running around 2000 BC Botswana in a movie about African gods.

Of course in any historical movie liberties will be taken with costumes, the language etc. They aren't making a documentary, this is to be expected.

This is my opinion, and Nolan did what he did & I think it is distracting and not consistent with the world Homer documented. I haven't read all the posts on here (I'm not getting into that beatdown) but I can only assume Nolan is doing whatever the heck he wants because he can and he wants to have his own vision of The Odyssey. I just disagree with that choice (and a few others he made from what I can tell from the trailers)

Hope that clears up my point.

Apache said:

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My point which you missed, is that is doesn't make sense to drop in a Black actress randomly into this Greek world if you are being consistent with worldbuilding. Just as it wouldn't make sense to have a bunch of Europeans or Asians running around 2000 BC Botswana in a movie about African gods.

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Haha, can you imagine Chris Pratt as one of the main protaganists helping protect Wakanda? I can't wait until AI is so prevalent and user friendly we can just make slight tweaks to movies like that, without completely altering it. I'm putting chubby Chris Pratt from Parks & Rec in movies like "Black Panther" and "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon" for comedic relief.

CharleyKerfeld said:

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I think 4 things are true.

Casting Lupita N'yongo as Helen is an easy DEI choice to hit a quota on minority casting, particularly as it relates to Best Picture nomination rules posted earlier today.

By most standards, Lupita N'yongo is an outstanding actress who has won an Oscar, and been nominated for Emmys, SAG awards, Golden Globes, and a Tony. From an objective standpoint, she can go toe to toe with Damon or Hathaway or Theron in her list of accomplishments.

For many people on the planet, Lupita N'yongo is very beautiful. Obviously not to everyone, as many loud voices have repeatedly insisted on this thread. But physical beauty is never going to be a universal truth. I'm sure we all have a celebrity or 2 that we can't stand that other people seem over the moon for and we just don't get it.

If you don't like what she has to say, don't go see the movie or listen to her interviews. The best way to change the way business gets done is to not support it.

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Well said

Hardcore Greg said:

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TCTTS said:

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Apache said:

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I propose that anyone wound up about casting choices on the basis of ethnicity/race or sexual orientation WANTS to be wound up about it.

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I wouldn't say I'm "wound up", it just doesn't make any sense for a movie set in the ancient Greek world to feature the daughter of Zeus/Spartan woman to be black. Maybe Zeus is Black in Nolan's vision??

Just as it wouldn't make any sense to have a white/Asian woman portraying a sub-Saharan African queen 3000 years ago in an African Myth.

Reviews at this point appear to be pretty good, so I'll likely see it as I grew up reading Greek mythology.

---

Zeus was a fictional god who posed as a swan to impregnate Helen's mother.

Helen herself then hatched from an egg her mother laid.

That is her official origin story.

To then ignore the fact that Helen hatched from an egg, while arguing that she shouldn't be black, is objectively one of the most ridiculous things this board has ever engaged in.

Never mind the fact that, again, The Odyssey is work of fiction/fantasy, set not in our world/history, but an alternate Earth universe in which gods and monsters not only existed, but drastically shaped the lives of men.

To that end, anyone arguing for "historical accuracy" is willfully ignorant and a hypocrite.

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Why do you think they cast her as black? Please give your honest opinion. To me, it is CLEARLY a diversity quota thing. A DEI hire. Do you honestly think they were sitting around using your logic of "well, technically she's being hatched from an egg, so we could make her any color really, as she is not the product of normal human intercourse, let's make her black!"...or do you think "we got raked over the coals for not having enough black people in the last few films so let's be careful to insert a few here" might be more likely?

Like, to you, is it POSSIBLE that it could be a pandering DEI choice? Or is it absurd to even entertain that?

I don't care that she is black personally...I mean, it's worthy of a slight eye roll, just given today;s environment...I just think it's funny for people to act like it's absurd or "extreme" to even entertain the notion.

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"They" didn't cast her.

One person and one person alone cast her, and that's Christopher Nolan.

No one else made that call/decision but him.

And Christopher Nolan is, objectively, one of the least woke directors in the game. Nothing in his 25-year directing history points to him being remotely woke, while, again, Oppenheimer was one of the whitest blockbusters of the century, much to the left's chagrin. They *****ed about it for MONTHS leading up to the movie's release, and he paid them ZERO mind in the process.

In other words, he doesn't ****ing care about "DEI" and all the **** you guys constantly squeal about.

Once again, for the thousandth time in this thread, A) he cast her because she's a fantastic, Oscar-winning actress whom many *do* find beautiful, B) he thought her capable of handling the TWO roles she's playing (Helen and her sister), and C) he's casting diversely not for "DEI" but to create a "global" cast for a "global" audience. You can call that "DEI" if you want, but that's not what it is. Rather, it's simply an attempt to put more butts in seats.

Also, this may come as a shock to you, but MOST PEOPLE SIMPLY DON'T GIVE A ***** They don't lose their minds over the skin color of a fictional fantasy character. Most people don't think like you and your cohort. YOU create the issue by letting it affect you to this degree. When, in reality, it just doesn't ****ing matter.

TCTTS said:

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Never mind that Nolan is one of the least woke directors around, and cast the whitest blockbuster of the century just three years ago with Oppenheimer, a move that the left whined about for months?

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I am certain that you staunchly defended Nolan against their idiotic takes there as well...

CharleyKerfeld said:

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If you don't like what she has to say, don't go see the movie or listen to her interviews. The best way to change the way business gets done is to not support it.

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This is what some of the critics here have been saying. Nolan, and Hollywood as a whole can do whatever they want but people don't have to support every instance or be quiet about their opinions. Most of the critics here are even saying that they will still see the Odyssey in theaters and hope it ends up being good.

But there's a strong pushback from people on this forum that claim people aren't allowed to critique a movie until they see it. Gate keeping criticism and opinions about the source material, when there is already plenty of information about the movie out before it's release.

The Odyssey could be great. It could be just above average. I don't see it flopping or even just being average, but to say people can't critique the obvious questionable choices then gate keep every decision in defense of the movie is not being honest.

TCTTS said:

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CharleyKerfeld said:

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ALL HAIL THE RATIO

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It's hilarious how they keep pointing to something they (the hardcore anti-woke) created, as proof that the rest of the world agrees with them or whatever. It's almost cute at this point, if it weren't so ******* lame.

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The cognitive dissonance it takes to make that point as the guy who posted 50 glowing reactions from "critics" who all share your exact worldview as if that's bulletproof evidence the movie is going to be amazing and not just a bunch of journos saying exactly what they'd be expected to say. At least the trailer downvoting comes from ordinary people.

TCTTS said:

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Hardcore Greg said:

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TCTTS said:

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Apache said:

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Quote:

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I propose that anyone wound up about casting choices on the basis of ethnicity/race or sexual orientation WANTS to be wound up about it.

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I wouldn't say I'm "wound up", it just doesn't make any sense for a movie set in the ancient Greek world to feature the daughter of Zeus/Spartan woman to be black. Maybe Zeus is Black in Nolan's vision??

Just as it wouldn't make any sense to have a white/Asian woman portraying a sub-Saharan African queen 3000 years ago in an African Myth.

Reviews at this point appear to be pretty good, so I'll likely see it as I grew up reading Greek mythology.

---

Zeus was a fictional god who posed as a swan to impregnate Helen's mother.

Helen herself then hatched from an egg her mother laid.

That is her official origin story.

To then ignore the fact that Helen hatched from an egg, while arguing that she shouldn't be black, is objectively one of the most ridiculous things this board has ever engaged in.

Never mind the fact that, again, The Odyssey is work of fiction/fantasy, set not in our world/history, but an alternate Earth universe in which gods and monsters not only existed, but drastically shaped the lives of men.

To that end, anyone arguing for "historical accuracy" is willfully ignorant and a hypocrite.

---

Why do you think they cast her as black? Please give your honest opinion. To me, it is CLEARLY a diversity quota thing. A DEI hire. Do you honestly think they were sitting around using your logic of "well, technically she's being hatched from an egg, so we could make her any color really, as she is not the product of normal human intercourse, let's make her black!"...or do you think "we got raked over the coals for not having enough black people in the last few films so let's be careful to insert a few here" might be more likely?

Like, to you, is it POSSIBLE that it could be a pandering DEI choice? Or is it absurd to even entertain that?

I don't care that she is black personally...I mean, it's worthy of a slight eye roll, just given today;s environment...I just think it's funny for people to act like it's absurd or "extreme" to even entertain the notion.

---

"They" didn't cast her.

One person and one person alone cast her, and that's Christopher Nolan.

No one else made that call/decision but him.

And Christopher Nolan is, objectively, one of the least woke directors in the game. Nothing in his 25-year directing history points to him being remotely woke, while, again, Oppenheimer was one of the whitest blockbusters of the century, much to the left's chagrin. They *****ed about it for MONTHS leading up to the movie's release, and he paid them ZERO mind in the process.

In other words, he doesn't ****ing care about "DEI" and all the **** you guys constantly squeal about.

Once again, for the thousandth time in this thread, A) he cast her because she's a fantastic, Oscar-winning actress whom many *do* find beautiful, B) he thought her capable of handling the TWO roles she's playing (Helen and her sister), and C) he's casting diversely not for "DEI" but to create a "global" cast for a "global" audience. You can call that "DEI" if you want, but that's not what it is. Rather, it's simply an attempt to put more butts in seats.

Also, this may come as a shock to you, but MOST PEOPLE SIMPLY DON'T GIVE A ***** They don't lose their minds over the skin color of a fictional fantasy character. Most people don't think like you and your cohort. YOU create the issue by letting it affect you to this degree. When, in reality, it just doesn't ****ing matter.

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No one is "losing their minds"...I don't know if that is projection or what, but no one here is losing their minds over this...you seem to love painting other people as crazy on an almost daily basis, which probably makes it tempting for people to mess with you from time to time tbh.

It's discussion around a head-scratcher of a casting decision for some people...from someone we would expect it from the least (Nolan)...unless it happens to be true that you need a certain amount of black/brown people to meet the threshold to be considered for certain awards. I have no clue whether that is true or not to be honest, but it would not surprise me...and that would make the most sense imo.

I just think it's more likely than "Helen was hatched from an egg, these figures aren't even human, so therfore let's make her black" being the logic for Nolan's decision.

TCTTS said:

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Apache said:

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Never mind the fact that, again, The Odyssey is work of fiction/fantasy, set not in our world/history, but an alternate Earth universe in which gods and monsters not only existed, but drastically shaped the lives of men

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Incorrect. The setting of the Odyssey is in the ancient GREEK world on our Earth. The Greeks believed these gods & monsters existed, though we know it is fiction.

My point which you missed, is that is doesn't make sense to drop in a Black actress randomly into this Greek world if you are being consistent with worldbuilding. Just as it wouldn't make sense to have a bunch of Europeans or Asians running around 2000 BC Botswana in a movie about African gods.

Of course in any historical movie liberties will be taken with costumes, the language etc. They aren't making a documentary, this is to be expected.

This is my opinion, and Nolan did what he did & I think it is distracting and not consistent with the world Homer documented. I haven't read all the posts on here (I'm not getting into that beatdown) but I can only assume Nolan is doing whatever the heck he wants because he can and he wants to have his own vision of The Odyssey. I just disagree with that choice (and a few others he made from what I can tell from the trailers)

Hope that clears up my point.

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Again, this is a fantasy world ruled by gods and monsters.

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Could make the same argument about "Black Panther"..."this is purely fiction, so who's to say some white dudes couldn't have held prominent/lead roles or been some of the main saviors of Wakanda?"

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So who's to say those gods and monsters couldn't have affected the world to the point of black people being even slightly more prominent in that part of the world?

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The source material & world that the Odyssey is based on?

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You cannot with a straight face argue that all cultures/demographics would otherwise be the exact same, just with gods and monsters as part of the equation.

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I'm not arguing. That's how the story was written.