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**** Wheel of Time Amazon Series ****

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Independent George
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8:25a, 11/11/21
AG
The show writer Rafe Judkins had a few things to say about the show recently that quite frankly infuriated me…

I made peace with the fact there will be changes to have a successful adaptation but when the show writer is fundamentally changing the source material in the manner described below, it is idiotic and illogical. Is goes against the entire foundation of the series.

Quote:
I think that the idea that the Dragon Reborn doesn't necessarily need to be a male character, that's really important.


Quote:
It's a very fundamental change actually to make to the book series. and it has a lot of ripple effects, and we will continue to do things like that I think are more reflective of what hopefully Robert Jordan would be writing if he was writing today.


The arrogance to say that you are fundamentally changing the source material because you think that is how Jordan would have wrote it today? It's not like it was written in the '20s.
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Micah97
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In reply to Independent George • 8:58a, 11/11/21
AG
Independent George said:
The show writer Rafe Judkins had a few things to say about the show recently that quite frankly infuriated me…

I made peace with the fact there will be changes to have a successful adaptation but when the show writer is fundamentally changing the source material in the manner described below, it is idiotic and illogical. Is goes against the entire foundation of the series.

Quote:
I think that the idea that the Dragon Reborn doesn't necessarily need to be a male character, that's really important.


Quote:
It's a very fundamental change actually to make to the book series. and it has a lot of ripple effects, and we will continue to do things like that I think are more reflective of what hopefully Robert Jordan would be writing if he was writing today.


The arrogance to say that you are fundamentally changing the source material because you think that is how Jordan would have wrote it today? It's not like it was written in the '20s.


Yeah, I'm eye rolling at all of the wokeness, but still can't help to be excited. Started reading this series after the first book was released in paperback and instantly became my favorite fantasy. I can't help but be excited despite the social commentary.
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Claude!
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9:08a, 11/11/21
I get that changes have to be made about the story, and some of the stuff I don't care about. What I read about Perrin, some of the sequence of events that gets them to Fal Dara, and all that stuff - that's all window-dressing and restructuring the plot to fit a television show. However, the Dragon Reborn being male is central to the whole conceit of the show. It's why all Aes Sedai are female, why the Red Ajah exists, and a host of other things. Hell, it's at least partly the reason that the island of Tar Valon is the shape it is:




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One Eyed Reveille
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9:14a, 11/11/21
AG
Is Saidin still the tainted side and labeled the "male" half or are they going to label them something like a left/right or ying/yang and remove the gender aspect?

The whole point that the Aes Sedai are the ones that CAN wield it and males can't is the story.
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Independent George
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In reply to Micah97 • 9:48a, 11/11/21
AG
Exactly how I feel, I'm still super excited and can deal with the smaller changes (I don't want to make this political). Just want him to stick to his job and adapt to television a story about an awesome world with great characters that we all love and grew up with. Not changing it because he thinks it should be.
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Definitely Not A Cop
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10:14a, 11/11/21
AG
I hate to get in the political realm as well on this, but I wonder if Jordan basically setting up the entire world as gender structured as it is in the books isn't what what writers in Hollywood like to see.

Which is a shame IMO, because even though the story might not be necessarily trans or gender fluid-friendly, it is one of the first fantasy series to go full bore into a matriarch-led society, and how much different the world is based on that.
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Claude!
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10:19a, 11/11/21
Transcript from a Q&A with Jordan from 2001:

Quote:
Q: In this same Age, in a different Turning of the Wheel of Time, could it be possible that it wouldn't be Rand's soul that was spun out as the Dragon, but for a different, female soul to take on this role?

ROBERT JORDAN: ...it would have to be. Err, in the differences between the same Age in different turnings of the Wheel, are that.. as for an analogy: imagine two tapestries hanging on a wall, and you look at them from the back of the room to the front of the store. And to look at them, they look identical to you. But as you get closer, you begin to see differences. And if you get close enough, they don't look anything at all alike. That is the difference between the Ages. Between the Age in one Turning and the Age in another. So it's quite possible that someone other than ____ could be the reborn soul of the Dragon Reborn.

Q: It would be the same soul, or it would be a different soul?

ROBERT JORDAN It would be the same soul. That is, that is the belief of the world that I've set up, that it's the same soul. It's a soul of someone bound to the Wheel, which is spun out for the purposes, for the Wheel's purposes really, to attempt to re-balance the Weaving of the Pattern.

Q: But the soul would always be male. Souls don't change gender, so ...

ROBERT JORDAN: ...so the soul of the Dragon Reborn is always going to be male, just as Birgitte's soul is always born as a woman, just as Ameresu's soul is always born as a woman. There are divisions here, and they are not interchangeable.
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Independent George
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In reply to One Eyed Reveille • 10:30a, 11/11/21
AG
"Plot that spans a few books": Arangar being brought back into a female body and still channels saidin is a huge plot point that lets us know channeling is tied to the soul.

With the above part of the actual story, why even stray from the material and create endless loops that will need to be reconciled constantly.
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PatAg
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In reply to Independent George • 10:46a, 11/11/21
AG
Independent George said:
The show writer Rafe Judkins had a few things to say about the show recently that quite frankly infuriated me…

I made peace with the fact there will be changes to have a successful adaptation but when the show writer is fundamentally changing the source material in the manner described below, it is idiotic and illogical. Is goes against the entire foundation of the series.

Quote:
I think that the idea that the Dragon Reborn doesn't necessarily need to be a male character, that's really important.


Quote:
It's a very fundamental change actually to make to the book series. and it has a lot of ripple effects, and we will continue to do things like that I think are more reflective of what hopefully Robert Jordan would be writing if he was writing today.


The arrogance to say that you are fundamentally changing the source material because you think that is how Jordan would have wrote it today? It's not like it was written in the '20s.
Hard to believe that is a marketing ploy to introduce the concept of Aes Sedai intrigue, since he is outright saying he has intentionally and fundamentally altered the story.

I find it hard to believe the people in charge of Robert Jordan's estate would allow this, but maybe they just completely sold away any rights to protect the story when Amazon bought the film rights?

I'm trying to think of a positive way to look at this, but I'm failing.
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Chipotlemonger
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In reply to Independent George • 10:54a, 11/11/21
AG
Independent George said:
"Plot that spans a few books": Arangar being brought back into a female body and still channels saidin is a huge plot point that lets us know channeling is tied to the soul.

With the above part of the actual story, why even stray from the material and create endless loops that will need to be reconciled constantly.
I could see Aran'gar not even being a part of this show. This is going to be much more 2000 ft view I think.
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AtlAg05
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11:09a, 11/11/21
AG
At least they are releasing it weekly so we can all come together and ***** about what they changed.
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c-jags
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In reply to PatAg • 11:18a, 11/11/21
PatAg said:
Independent George said:
The show writer Rafe Judkins had a few things to say about the show recently that quite frankly infuriated me…

I made peace with the fact there will be changes to have a successful adaptation but when the show writer is fundamentally changing the source material in the manner described below, it is idiotic and illogical. Is goes against the entire foundation of the series.

Quote:
I think that the idea that the Dragon Reborn doesn't necessarily need to be a male character, that's really important.


Quote:
It's a very fundamental change actually to make to the book series. and it has a lot of ripple effects, and we will continue to do things like that I think are more reflective of what hopefully Robert Jordan would be writing if he was writing today.


The arrogance to say that you are fundamentally changing the source material because you think that is how Jordan would have wrote it today? It's not like it was written in the '20s.
Hard to believe that is a marketing ploy to introduce the concept of Aes Sedai intrigue, since he is outright saying he has intentionally and fundamentally altered the story.

I find it hard to believe the people in charge of Robert Jordan's estate would allow this, but maybe they just completely sold away any rights to protect the story when Amazon bought the film rights?

I'm trying to think of a positive way to look at this, but I'm failing.
i have a bookmarked thread on tigerdroppings where a true believer is saying that they are just trying to not show their hand by making the trailers look like Moraine and the Aes Sedai are the central and only key characters. he's convinced it's a bait and switch and it will rightfully focus on the group from Two Rivers and Rand will still be the dragon reborn. i'm going to dunk on that dude so hard.

as an aside, i find it hilarious that a show that the original source material had tons of racial representation, homosexuality, polyamory, interracial relationships, and the matriarchy literally running the world needed to have a 21st century reshaping.


ETA: still watching and hopeful, but i am going in with some mixed feelings.
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Micah97
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1:57p, 11/11/21
AG
Producer planning on eight seasons.

https://www.gamesradar.com/amp/the-wheel-of-time-showrunner-sees-the-amazon-series-running-for-eight-seasons/
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dc509
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In reply to c-jags • 2:23p, 11/11/21
AG
Quote:
as an aside, i find it hilarious that a show that the original source material had tons of racial representation, homosexuality, polyamory, interracial relationships, and the matriarchy literally running the world needed to have a 21st century reshaping.

I've had this thought. When I read the book series I remember thinking that quite a bit of this will play well in todays world. I'm sure the series will be different (it kind of has to be because of how dense the story is) but if they take it too far they could blow it.
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Chipotlemonger
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12:29a, 11/13/21
AG
Interesting, any of y'all see this? Guess there are some animated shorts acting as addendums to the series, mainly covering history of the WoT world.

Interesting. Wonder how it will play out. Maybe they use it to expound upon Lews Therin, etc.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CWL2lLegWcY/?utm_medium=copy_link
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boboguitar
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In reply to Chipotlemonger • 6:14a, 11/13/21
AG
Chipotlemonger said:
Interesting, any of y'all see this? Guess there are some animated shorts acting as addendums to the series, mainly covering history of the WoT world.

Interesting. Wonder how it will play out. Maybe they use it to expound upon Lews Therin, etc.

https://www.instagram.com/tv/CWL2lLegWcY/?utm_medium=copy_link
I'm only on book 7 and I'm afraid to watch those for spoilers to my current story.
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Hudson2508
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11:33a, 11/13/21
AG
Wait, I'm playing catch up on the show rumors. Are we seriously thinking the show will make someone besides Rand the Dragon? I was taking that trailer as simply a way to keep it a secret longer for the television audience. That would be supremely stupid if they made someone besides Rand the dragon. They'd have to change the whole story and that seems like a lot of work.
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Chipotlemonger
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In reply to Hudson2508 • 11:39a, 11/13/21
AG
Hudson2508 said:
Wait, I'm playing catch up on the show rumors. Are we seriously thinking the show will make someone besides Rand the Dragon? I was taking that trailer as simply a way to keep it a secret longer for the television audience. That would be supremely stupid if they made someone besides Rand the dragon. They'd have to change the whole story and that seems like a lot of work.


That's not how I've interpreted it. I also have just taken it as a way to draw in the new audience a bit longer initially.

I think the commentary and dialog that's come out is just show business stuff. Making the show dialog bring in Egwene too as "one of the 4" and then Rafe just saying offhand why not a female dragon. By the end of season 1 for sure everyone should know who the DR is.
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Definitely Not A Cop
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In reply to Hudson2508 • 12:19p, 11/13/21
AG
Hudson2508 said:
Wait, I'm playing catch up on the show rumors. Are we seriously thinking the show will make someone besides Rand the Dragon? I was taking that trailer as simply a way to keep it a secret longer for the television audience. That would be supremely stupid if they made someone besides Rand the dragon. They'd have to change the whole story and that seems like a lot of work.


I think Rand is the dragon. I don't think that's ever been considered being changed. From what I've seen above though, they may not necessarily give us the same backstory on the dragon, with the emphasis between saidar and saidin? I don't think anyone really knows yet. The writer made some comments basically saying they didn't like how gendered structured the universe is, even though the entire concept of the story is based around that gender structure. Then the line from the trailer makes people think they actually changed something substantive like that. I'm in a wait and see mode.
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Micah97
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7:53a, 11/16/21
AG
Lots of reviews from last night's screening. Overall very positive, but these are mostly the super fans. Some issues with fast pacing in the first episode, but settles down in episode two. There are plenty of spoiler reviews out there if you want to know specifics, but generally speaking, the ten or so that I read were all happy with what they saw.
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Micah97
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9:19a, 11/16/21
AG
https://www.telegraph.co.uk/tv/0/wheel-time-review-dungeons-dragons-cosplay-game-thrones/

First review after embargo lifted.
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wangus12
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10:14a, 11/16/21
AG
My brother went last night. Need to ask him what he thought
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Micah97
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11:26a, 11/16/21
AG
Another spoiler free review.

https://www.wotseries.com/2021/11/16/spoiler-free-review-for-episodes-1-3-of-amazons-the-wheel-of-time/
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tallgrant
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11:29a, 11/16/21
Seeing a review with some changes:

1. Perrin already married
2. Mat has children (daughters) already

Pretty unhappy with hearing this, plus the reports that the show likes to repeat itself on exposition frequently to help dumb it down.
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bluefire579
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11:58a, 11/16/21
AG
IO9's review: https://gizmodo.com/the-wheel-of-time-tv-series-is-better-worse-and-diffe-1848063392
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Deleted User
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12:08p, 11/16/21
AG
This book series has always been too intimidating for me to pick up. I appreciate that it's a completed series, but after reading how many books there are and how much filler was in the middle of the series allegedly, I really hope to finally get to experience this story as a good TV show.
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Chipotlemonger
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In reply to tallgrant • 12:33p, 11/16/21
AG
Those would both be terrible changes and completely ruins some plot points and character development.
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Chipotlemonger
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12:39p, 11/16/21
AG
I realize a lot of my sentiment lately has been skewed towards negative. It was bound to happen with how condensed this show is going to have to be compared to the books.

That being said, we should take a step back and soak up this time right now. Many of us are avid fans of this series and to have a full fledged production of it on the screen seemed far off for a long time, or even impossible to have happen. No matter what the Amazon series does, it is really neat that this fantasy series has even got to this point.

Hopefully this week's kickoff can be a celebration of that. Lets see where the show goes!

RE: repeating itself in exposition, I wonder if that's just to really help people out that have not read any of the books and are going in cold
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bluefire579
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In reply to Chipotlemonger • 12:46p, 11/16/21
AG
Chipotlemonger said:
I realize a lot of my sentiment lately has been skewed towards negative. It was bound to happen with how condensed this show is going to have to be compared to the books.

That being said, we should take a step back and soak up this time right now. Many of us are avid fans of this series and to have a full fledged production of it on the screen seemed far off for a long time, or even impossible to have happen. No matter what the Amazon series does, it is really neat that this fantasy series has even got to this point.

Hopefully this week's kickoff can be a celebration of that. Lets see where the show goes!

RE: repeating itself in exposition, I wonder if that's just to really help people out that have not read any of the books and are going in cold
Pretty much how I'm approaching it. We all knew there were going to have to be changes to make a series like this viable on the screen, big or small. We also need to understand that they're going to make it as accessible to folks who have never read the books (which hopefully inspires them to dive in), and if we want the series to succeed, we need those non book readers to come in droves, just as they did for Game of Thrones.

Hopefully these changes end up having minor impacts on the final product. Some do seem worrying on the surface, but any change seems worrying when you're viewing it in snippets and not in the context of the show.
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Definitely Not A Cop
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In reply to tallgrant • 1:02p, 11/16/21
AG
tallgrant said:
Seeing a review with some changes:

1. Perrin already married
2. Mat has children (daughters) already

Pretty unhappy with hearing this, plus the reports that the show likes to repeat itself on exposition frequently to help dumb it down.


does that mean there is a chance that Faile isn't in it? Because honestly that might be an improvement.
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c-jags
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4:59p, 11/16/21
https://www.rollingstone.com/tv/tv-reviews/wheel-of-time-review-1256783/

Rolling Stone hates it so I have been given back some hope.
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ElKabong
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5:38p, 11/16/21

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Micah97
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5:54p, 11/16/21
AG
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bearamedic99
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In reply to Definitely Not A Cop • 5:55p, 11/16/21
AG
I wish I hadn't clicked on the spoiler.

I guess I'm the only person who liked Failed

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c-jags
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In reply to bearamedic99 • 5:58p, 11/16/21
bearamedic99 said:
I wish I hadn't clicked on the spoiler.

I guess I'm the only person who liked Failed




Generally. Yes. I like her as a plot device for Perrin but she's a fairly annoying character.
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